Stories from Saints, Sufferers, & Sinners – Episode 2: Rona

Transcript:

When a fellow believer shares his or her story with you, what grabs your attention? Are there certain themes you listen for? Are there commonalities amidst the diversity and complexity of our individual stories, experiences that we share and that map on to a basic framework of understanding? I’m glad to welcome you as a listener to this podcast. I’m Mike Emlet, counselor and faculty member at the Christian Counseling and Educational Foundation, CCEF. In conjunction with the release of my new book, Saints, Sufferers, and Sinners: Loving Others As God Loves Us, you’re about to hear a new podcast series during which I’ll interview several of my colleagues at CCEF.

During these conversations, we’ll explore the intersection of three struggles common to each of us as believers in Christ. The first is the struggle to ground our foundational identity in our relationship with Jesus Christ. “Who am I really” and “How do I live each day in light of that identity” is a question we find ourselves revisiting often as believers. What does it truly mean to live as a daughter or son of our Heavenly Father, a saint who is secure in Christ? The second is the struggle with suffering. We all wrestle with various hardships and afflictions, whether they arise from bodily weakness, relationships, or the situational challenges of life, whether they be traffic jams, financial hardships, or pandemics. How do we draw near to God who is an ever present help in times of trouble? How do we help others do that?

Third is the struggle with sin. We all wrestle with the evil that dwells within our hearts and our erupts in words and deeds that harm others and ourselves. How do we reckon with the fact that as the Apostle Paul says, when I want to do good, evil is right there with me? How does God help us grow in holiness? Moreover, how do we speak wisely and winsomely to those mired in sin? As Christians, we share the experience of simultaneously being saints, sufferers, and sinners. Knowing one another and loving one another well requires that we attend to these three foundational experiences. So join me now in listening to stories from saints, sufferers, and sinners.

Today I’ll be talking with Rona Babb. Rona is originally from Green Forest, Arkansas. After she graduated college, she served as a missionary in Seoul, South Korea for six years before moving back to the States to attend Westminster Theological Seminary, where she earned her master’s degree studying theology, the Bible, and biblical counseling. She currently works as a biblical counselor at Logan Hope School, a small school in an under-resourced neighborhood of Philadelphia that is predominantly made up of second and third generation Cambodian Americans. Rona also works part-time at CCEF as an intake counselor and administrative assistant while she completes CCEF counseling certificate program. Rona is currently in the midst of planning a COVID wedding with her fiance, Jordan, which is set for March 1, 2021.

Here are several things to listen for amidst Rona’s wonderfully transparent storytelling. Notice how intertwined the experiences of being a saint, sufferer, and sinner are. These are not segmented areas of our lives, our day-to-day experiences, or a blending of the three. And so you’ll hear that our conversation travels back and forth seamlessly in all three areas.

Secondly, pay attention also to the long arc of change God works in us. Rona speaks of issues she’s wrestled with over the course of her life and how God is continuing to grow her. It’s a great testimony to Philippians 1:6 in action that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion.

And then finally, notice the marked contrast between Rona’s friend, Betsy, who ministered so well to her versus Rona’s ministry leader in South Korea, whose words did not bring comfort, and in fact, exacerbated some of Rona’s tendencies toward performance and people pleasing. This is sobering. Our words have weight. After listening, consider your conversations this week and ask God to give you as Isaiah 54 says, the ability to sustain the weary one with your words.

Mike:

Okay. Great. Well, Rona, I’m really thankful for the opportunity to talk with you, to have this conversation, and to get to know you better. So thank you for being part of this.

Rona:

It’s really exciting to get to chat with you and take part in this conversation also. Thanks for having me.

Mike:

Sure. I’d like to just dive in and kind of get a sense of the journey that the Lord has had you on. How did you come to know Him?

Rona:

Yeah, so I actually grew up in the Bible Belt, and so there are churches on every corner. I grew up in a very small town in Arkansas, and so I think I’ve always been exposed to Christianity in a cultural sense. And I remember saying a prayer to Jesus in my heart, I think when I was five or six, because we had a lot of tornadoes that passed through our town. And that particular evening, there was supposed to be a big tornado, and I remember just being so frightened all the time when I was a kid, but especially that particular night.

And I remember my mom said something like, “If Jesus lives in your heart and you pray to Him, you don’t have to be afraid of tornadoes.” And so I think my prayer went something like, “Jesus, I’ll believe in you if you don’t kill me in this tornado,” or something like that. So I remember that happening, and I remember talking to and praying to God through my life, but I wouldn’t say I actively saw Jesus as the Lord and followed Him with my heart until I was 19 and in college. And that’s when a lot of things just began to change drastically in my life, and the direction of my life changed from that point.

Mike:

Yeah, I’d love to hear more about that. What were some of the things that happened at that time that, in a sense, catalyzed your relationship with the Lord?

Rona:

Yeah. So I was studying abroad in Seoul, South Korea. I had just finished my… Yeah, so I was a college sophomore, and I was at this orientation for international students. And I was thinking, okay, well I don’t have any friends here. I’m in a new city. I’m all by myself, so I want to make friends. And there was a campus ministry, and I thought, okay, well I’ll hang out with these lame Christians until I find other friends, or something like that. I don’t know.

And I think it was a Campus Crusade for Christ staff who was formally serving at NYU, and then served in Seoul, but I went to one of their college ministry retreats. And the campus ministry leader just prayed for a lot of us. And I remember when he prayed for me, I don’t know how to… I’ve been in ministry for a while now, and there’s so many beautiful ways that God brings people to Himself. But I think my experience of becoming a believer was very dramatic, because I remember in that moment when he prayed for me, I just feel like the fear of the Lord just gripped my heart.

And what I heard all my life in Sunday school about, “We need a savior, and Jesus died on the cross for our sins,” I guess it was just a good story. But in that moment, it was just like the fear of the Lord gripped my heart, and I felt like, oh my gosh, I am a sinner. I deserve to die. And I just started to… My heart was so heavy with all of the sins that I committed, and also just those sins in my heart. And then I also just began to see in my mind’s eye all the sins committed against me.

And I just remember thinking, I had an abusive father. He was alcoholic and very full of rage, and I think that my emotions and just everything shut down when I was very young because of that. And in that prayer time, a switch just turned on, and I felt like I could feel again, and I could feel just the grief of the childhood that I had, and the experiences I had with my father. And so it was just a very emotional experience. And in it all, I just felt like the Lord was telling me that I didn’t have to run away anymore, that He was sufficient, and that He was the savior that I needed to rescue me from my sin, and he was the father that I’ve always been longing for.

And I think right in that same prayer meeting, I remember thinking, oh my goodness, people are dying without knowing this God. And I don’t care what I do with my life, but I want to make Him known, and I want people to know His love and His goodness, because it was just so life-altering for me that I wanted that for others as well. And so I was 19, and I’m 32 now, so that’s how old I am in the Lord. And my life has been just so different since that moment.

Mike:

Wow, that’s amazing, just to see how the Lord… You had a lot of, obviously, information, right, about the Lord.

Rona:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mike:

But at that moment, it seems like not only… The way you put it was really interesting, that not only were you gripped by the sins that you had committed, but also by the sins committed against you. And so that both places of sin and places of deep suffering, the Lord met you in that moment in both of those ways.

Rona:

Right. Right. Yeah. And I still don’t understand the timing of God, that I can hear about something my whole life and then there are these moments when God makes something so real to you, and you realize, oh, this isn’t just for everyone else, but this is for me. I am that person that Christ died for, and I am that orphan that the father has adopted into his family. It just changes everything when it becomes to personal. Yeah.

Mike:

Yeah. I mean, if you’d be willing, I’d love to hear a little more about you talking about, just now, being adopted, into the father’s family, and with regard to what you said about your dad as well. Can you talk a little bit more about that in terms of, what was that like to, in a sense, be in a new family with just the, this is the real deal in terms of a father? What was that like to be adopted into the family of God?

Rona:

Yeah. I think it’s like a truth that has immensely blessed me and brought healing to me, and it’s a truth that I’m still grappling with and don’t believe in many ways, also. I believe it, and yet I don’t in many of the ways that I function and operate still. I think that there are seasons when I can grasp and get a glimpse of, oh, in Christ, I am fully accepted by God, and His pleasure rests on me. The benediction of the Lord’s face is turned towards you, and just all the psalms talking about the face of the Lord turned towards His people, and His delight being in His people.

There are seasons where that reality can be so sweet to me and I live from that place of just, wow, I am accepted by God, and He is my father. And no matter what type of shame I have connected to my past or brokenness, or whatever accusations the enemy might send my way, this truth of God’s pleasure over His children is my just stronghold. But there are other times when it’s very far and distant, and all I can think is, oh, who am I to want to serve the Lord? Who am I to want to counsel people? I was a missionary in Korea for about six years. Who am I to serve the Lord in this way?

Who am I to tell people of His goodness? I’m the most broken. I’m the most flawed. I’m the most sinful. And I do have times where I really struggle to live in that reality of my new identity in Christ and my adoption into God’s family. So yeah, I definitely go back and forth in my walk with the Lord.

Mike:

Yeah. And I think you’re speaking of a reality that many of us can identity with, that we have experience, we know we’re part of God’s family, we’re His beloved children, but pressing that reality into the particularities of each day can be really challenging.

Rona:

Definitely. Yeah.

Mike:

On those times when it feels more distant, when there’s this sense of, who am I? Am I beloved? Am I worthy? What helps you? How do you move back into that resting place under the benediction of the Lord? What have you found helpful in that?

Rona:

I think what is helpful is remembering the biblical narrative and all of the characters who have made up God’s family, His children. And there are so many screw ups and so many people with shameful pasts, and so many people that you would think, oh, God, you had a lot of choices, but you went with this guy. Why did you? Your choices are questionable. But then I look at that list and I think, I think that this good news can apply to me, too. And I especially think of verses like, “Not many of you are wise and strong and powerful, and God takes what’s weak and despised and shameful and foolish, and He received glory from people like that.”

We get to just say… And sometimes I feel like I just speak back to the enemy and I say, “Okay, yeah. This is my brokenness. This is my past. This is something that shames me, and this is the sin that I struggle with, but I bring that to the table.” And even if that’s all I bring to the table, this is what Christ has promised, that He takes that. And that’s what He has come for. He came to seek and save the lost. So yeah, even if all those accusations are true, even that’s just proof that the gospel is so good, and that this king is unlike any other.

And I think that shame is so crippling, it’s so paralyzing, but then when you just reframe it and you think, oh, well, these very things that I would say disqualify me actually give me a seat at the table, and that God… It’s displays of His glory and His work and His salvation and His power in what’s shamed and shameful. And so I think verses like that encourage me so much, remembering that all of this rests on who the Lord is, and that He loves who He loves. And that’s it.

Mike:

Yeah. Yeah, you’re highlighting how it’s external to you, in a sense, that He has set His love on you because He’s set His love on you, and you see that throughout the pages of scripture, and so going back again and again to that reality of, He did this.

Rona:

Right.

Mike:

He chooses the weak and the unworthy. Yeah, any time we try to put stock in ourselves, it doesn’t go very far.

Rona:

Exactly. Yeah. And it’s hard. It’s like when you become a Christian, it’s not like your way of operating in the world immediately changes. All your old patterns and habits are just part of how you move about this world, how you work, how you interact with people. So even though you believe these truths, it’s like, oh, a few days pass, and then you find yourself putting your worth in your performance or in people’s acceptance of you, and those truths become far away again. And so I think it’s just… I don’t know if it was [Burgeon 00:21:05] that said, “You have to preach the gospel to yourself every day.”

Mike:

Yes.

Rona:

And the longer I walk with the Lord, the more I resonate with that. It is just something that nourishes our souls every single day.

Mike:

Yeah. And there’s a lot that can threaten, in a sense, our sense of standing, secure standing in the Lord. I mean, certainly one whole place where that happens is the suffering either that’s happened to us. You alluded to suffering in your childhood. But suffering that we experience in the present also can threaten that. When you talked earlier about that moving out of that place of settled sense of the Lord’s favor, what are some of the places where you feel like, yeah, what pushes you away, potentially, from that settled place?

Rona:

Right, yeah. I think that one of the things I find myself routinely getting just… I don’t know the right word, bombarded or sidetracked, or just distracted by, is the approval of man. And I think that there was a lot of experiences growing up where I felt as though I was on my own, and my parents had kind of forsaken me. And I remember thinking so often, if I could just be a little different, and if I could just… The crazy thing is, I think that I was very successful. I never made anything but A’s, and I got a full ride to… I mean, there was just this constant voice that, if I were just a little better, whatever I tried.

Even if it was just a pleasurable hobby, it was like, if you could just be a little better, a little different, maybe your dad would be different, maybe your mom would be different, maybe things could be better. And I think I’ve carried that with me into friendships and relationships, like, oh, if I could be a little more loving, if I could be a little more something, then maybe I will be accepted or loved. And when I became a believer, I was part of such a wonderful Christian community, and I made these lifelong friendships of people that they have seen me through ups and downs and loved me not perfectly, but consistently, and they have weathered many seasons with me.

And I’ve gotten a glimpse of what God means when I think about His steadfast love. And I see, okay, love doesn’t mean you have to continually try to be a different person or strive. I think strive is a word that I have, when I catch… It’s tricky. It’s like you don’t know you’re striving when you’re striving, but later you’re like, why am I exhausted, and why-

Mike:

Yes.

Rona:

… don’t I want to do anything and enjoy anybody right now? And then it’s like, oh, maybe because I’m [crosstalk 00:24:48]-

Mike:

You’ve been on the treadmill. Yes.

Rona:

Yeah, I’ve been on the treadmill. And so that’s definitely this big thing, fear of man and seeking man’s approval. And it’s like a beast that can never be satisfied, because no matter who tells you, “Rona, you’re great. You’re such a great person and such a great counselor and such a great student, and you’re so good.” It doesn’t matter who says what. It’s never enough. And it will never kind of satisfy what this pattern is creating in me. So that is a big one for sure.

Mike:

Yeah.

Rona:

Oh, yeah, were you about to say something, Mike?

Mike:

No, I mean, that’s really, yeah, helpful to hear. You’re saying, “If I listen to any other voice, really, other than the Lord’s pronouncement upon me, whether it’s my own internal, I must be better, I must do more,” it’s never a secure place. You’re highlighting that it’s just not a secure place. It’s also interesting. You’re also highlighting the importance of the body of Christ, not in terms of their particular affirmations, you’re great, or you’re doing well, because as you say, that, in the end of the day, may not be enough either, right?

Rona:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mike:

But at the same time, finding that acceptance, that family, that home with other believers is a manifestation of the love of the father for you as well.

Rona:

Right.

Mike:

So yeah, it’s helpful to hear you talk about that aspect, what the fellowship is like for you, particularly since you came to Christ.

Rona:

Yeah. It has been so healing. And I’ve moved a lot since becoming a believer, and it is just, I think, so gracious of God when I think about the provision of His church and His people, and just the gifts of His children to me personally in different seasons. I just don’t know where I would be without just these significant people God’s put in my life.

Mike:

Amen. Yeah, how have the people around you ministered well to you in periods of suffering? Obviously you talked a bit about your childhood. So since coming to the Lord, can you talk about a time where someone ministered wisely and well to you, and why that was so helpful? What was it that was so helpful?

Rona:

Yeah. There is just so many examples. I think that one most recently was… And a sweet lady, one of my mentors from my church here in Pennsylvania. She’s in her 70s, and her name is Betsy, and I don’t think she’ll mind me sharing that. Goodness. There’s a backstory to this, but she has been a very key person in my life in some really difficult times. And the first time I met her was on Mother’s Day, on a Sunday, and I was new to my church, and I was beelining it to the door after the sermon because I was just in tears. And I knew if I had to talk someone, that I would cry more. And I just was new to the church and thought, okay, well, I want to get to know people before they-

Mike:

I don’t want this to be… Yeah.

Rona:

Yeah.

Mike:

My first impression.

Rona:

So I was trying to get out of there really fast. And I knew if anyone asked me any questions, it was just going to be a mess. The reason that Mother’s Day was so hard for me was because, when I became a believer when I was 19 back in 2008. Oh, goodness. Something like that. I told my mom, and I was very excited, but I think I just told her the way I encountered God, and I said, “I want to be a missionary, and I just want to give my whole life to this because it’s changed everything.”

And that began… Our relationship was already hard over the years, but that brought a new dynamic to it. And I think her comment was something like, “No daughter of mine is going to go around begging people for money.” And basically, I think she’s disowned me about three or four times for being a missionary and for just different decisions that I made. And before I moved to Westminster… Or that’s what it feels like. Before I moved to Pennsylvania to become a seminary at Westminster, there was just a really big blowup, and yeah.

Rona:

So she and I hadn’t talked for I think six months, or just quite a while. And I think that my heart was just very broken by my joy to follow the Lord and what I felt like He was calling me to do, but also just how I longed for my mom to be a part of my life, and for her to join me in this joy, but also… Yeah, it was hard to be a missionary [inaudible 00:31:10] away from friends and family, and it’s hard to move across country and to a completely new city and start seminary. And I’ve just been, I felt like, by myself for a very long time.

And that Mother’s Day, I think my heart was just breaking because I wanted to… The previous Mother’s Day, I cooked her a very large brunch and gotten her these gifts, and I just felt heartbroken that I couldn’t do that, and that our relationship was where it was at. So all of that to say, as I was beelining it out of church, Betsy, she’s this sweet, small, old lady, came up to me, and she grabbed my hands, and she just said, “Oh, I don’t think we’ve meet. I’m Betsy, and I just saw you, and I wanted to say hi and introduce myself.” And so we sat in a back pew, and she was like, “Oh, it looks like there’s something on your heart.”

And so I shared a little bit, and her eyes filled with tears, and she was just saying that her daughter is a missionary in Japan, and Mother’s Day is especially difficult for her as well because she’s all by herself. And I don’t know. It just was like, Lord, you’re so good that you give us-

Mike:

Wow.

Rona:

… one another. And she just kind of took me in, and she has had a lot of suffering and tragedy in her life. And I don’t know how to explain the atmosphere Betsy creates around her, but it’s like if you have lost everything and all you have is Jesus, and then you find out that He is the treasure that you just never imagined could be this good. That is what Betsy gives off.

Mike:

Wow.

Rona:

And so every conversation, she usually just ends, and I don’t know. It could be any topic, but the conversation always moves towards, “Isn’t Jesus so good?” And then it’s just like, “Yes, He is, Betsy.” And so I think that Sunday, I was sick for quite a while in seminary. I was getting sick almost once a month. I don’t know if it was just I was not used to the allergens here or something, but I was getting sinus infections all the time, and then I had this weird allergic reaction where my hands were burning, and there was a rash on them, and I’m missing class.

And Westminster is very rigorous, and I’m getting behind, and it was like I was sick two weeks out of the month. And then I’d finally get better, try to catch up, and then get sick again. And this was happening for over a year, so I was just very disheartened. And I remember missing church services and some of my friends just being like, “Somebody doesn’t really like being at church.” And I just remember being like… I was so upset, and I’m like, I hate that this [inaudible 00:34:24] people think I don’t love to worship. I was just really discouraged.

And I remember one Sunday, Betsy was like, “Oh, Rona, which hospital are you getting this allergy test done at? Is it okay if I meet you there? Is it okay if I sit in the waiting room while you get the allergy test done?” And I just broke down crying. I lived overseas a long time by myself, and I was here, and I just haven’t had family, and no one’s ever been in the waiting room when I’ve been sick.

It’s such small things, but they just reveal to me the Lord’s nearness. And He cares about these small, particular things. I didn’t know how meaningful it would be to me that Betsy would offer to come to the waiting room while I was getting this testing done. But it’s exactly what I most needed to hear, that I’m not completely alone in this. So yeah, Betsy has been a very kind and wise and loving sister in Christ and spiritual mother and mentor of mine.

Mike:

Wow, such a tender and powerful story just in terms of your own, yeah, sense of loneliness, not having that support for so many years. The things that you talked about in terms of going overseas, hard enough to do when you’re, in a sense, fully supported by family, but it’s a lonely time. And the estrangement from your mom, just a very heavy and ongoing burden. So to have Betsy just come to you and just her presence and her pointing you to Jesus, yeah, that’s so neat. And yeah, you highlighted, it’s not this huge thing in one sense, but it was her taking the time to grab your hands and sit down and introduce herself, or go with you for the allergy testing. This is a master class in caring, right, before our very eyes.

Rona:

That’s right.

Mike:

What’s her phone number? What’s her phone number? No, I’m just kidding.

Rona:

That was good.

Mike:

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And you alluded to this, kind of the flip side, some friends who, when they didn’t see you at church, were like, “What’s up? Not that interested, are you?” What’s an instance or two of where someone didn’t care well for you in the midst of suffering? What would you say there?

Rona:

I think that I can remember distinctly a moment in Korea when I was doing campus ministry, and we had just started a plant at a new university. So it was a new ministry at this new school, and I was supposed to give a word that night. So I started full time support raising ministry at the beginning of 2012, and I went on a mission trip to Nepal with my church, and then I got back, and my brother called and told me that my dad had passed away unexpectedly. And I didn’t have a lot of contact with him, but I think when I became a believer, I just had this certainty that he was going to have this transformational type of experience meeting the Lord.

And I prayed every single night that my dad would encounter God. And I just was crushed when I found out he passed away, because I thought, what… I just didn’t understand. And I wanted so much for him. And I was in shock, and I flew back to the States for his funeral, then I flew back to Seoul, and that’s when I had to start full time support raising for my income, and also when we were kicking off the start of this campus plant. And I went up to my leader, my ministry leader, and I just said, “I can’t share tonight. I don’t have anything, and I’m just not okay, and I don’t know what to do.”

And I think her words to me were, “There are souls on the line, and you need to stop focusing on yourself and get out there and serve the Lord.” And I’ve been in leadership positions in church, and I know the stress and the strain, and I know not everything she said was wrong. To value the work that God’s called us to do is so important, but I think in that moment, I just believed, Rona, you are so selfish for not caring about these college students, and for making these excuses, and you need to just get it in gear. And no matter what, the show must go on.

And I think that’s this mentality. And that’s just when I started full time ministry, and my dad had passed away, so then the whole year I think I was just in shock. No matter when it would hit, he’s no longer here, and I have these unanswered questions, and I needed so badly to talk about it and to remember him and grieve. And I just didn’t know how to do that. I didn’t know I needed to do it, and I just had to keep busy with the ministry demands in that season.

And so unfortunately, it’s a lot of unlearning from that, those six years of just, no matter what’s coming up, you just push through, and you make it happen. And learning now, we get the honor of partnering with the Lord, but He doesn’t need any of us. And it’s good to process these things to grieve. Yeah, so that was very painful and really hard to work through.

Mike:

Yeah. And set a trajectory for your time in ministry that in a sense put the damper on communicating those heartfelt griefs, [inaudible 00:42:08] questions, both to the Lord and to others. So it certainly, I would imagine, really exacerbated a sense of loneliness and isolation.

Rona:

Yeah, definitely.

Mike:

Yeah. Well, I mean, how has the Lord met you in the midst of your suffering? What are places… Maybe it was even during those initial years, but even now in the midst of various sufferings and trials the Lord has, are there places in scripture where He’s ministered to you, it’s just been lively to your soul in the midst of your suffering?

Rona:

There is quite a few psalms that come to mind, but one of the earliest ones that still I return to and meditate on is Psalm 27. And the reason this psalm is so significant to me is because when I was not actively following the Lord my senior of high school… I feel like I give really long backstories on your questions-

Mike:

That’s all right.

Rona:

… but it’s to put things in context.

Mike:

I love backstories.

Rona:

Okay. Okay. My mom had a brain aneurism, and she had to have surgery right before my senior year began. And we lost our home, and my dad had a house in that town, and he had remarried, and she didn’t want him to help us. Anyway, so my mom and I lost our house, and her poorest friends took us in, and they lived in this tiny trailer, and it sometimes didn’t have running water. It was a very hard time in my life. And I remember being filled with a lot of hatred, and I remember thinking, I’m never going to call this man father. These parents of mind, they’re not…

It was a very hard time. And I felt as though it confirmed, Rona, you are rejected, and you are alone. Your parents aren’t even concerned about your wellbeing or whatever. And I remember in that year not reading my Bible regularly, but I remember one night, Psalm 27, the verse that says, “Even if my father and mother forsake me, the Lord will take me in.” And I just felt this immense peace, like, just do this next thing on your plate. Finish high school. Work hard. And I didn’t know God in the sense that I know Him now, in this I’m following Him relationship, but I knew that He was going to take care of me.

And then it was just a year after that when I studied abroad and met Him. And this psalm I return to often because I think there are so many themes from my life that it just speaks on. The Lord is my light and my salvation. Whom shall I fear? The Lord is the stronghold of my life when everything else will collapse under my feet. And even the dearest people that you could put your humanly hope on, your parents, even if they fail, and they will, even the best parents fail, the Lord takes you in. And if we don’t have a home, a place to go, this psalm is speaking about this one place, this one thing that we can center our hope and our affection on.

The Lord and His beauty and His temple, this is the best place anyway. There is a place for you here, and it is to see God and to know Him, and He has said, “Seek my face.” And He turns His face towards His children. And I think that’s what dissolves shame at the end of the day, is getting to see and read the face of the Lord is turned towards you, and He doesn’t look away, and this is the face of perfect love and wisdom and kindness. And yeah, Psalm 27 definitely comes to mind.

Mike:

Wow. Yeah, that’s really encouraging to my own heart in terms of, yeah, all these things, these terrible things that could happen, and have happened in terms of mother and father forsaking you, the Lord turning His face to us in the midst of our affliction, in the midst of our deep suffering, is so critical. Yeah.

Rona:

Yeah.

Mike:

Yeah. So we’ve been talking about suffering. What about just the walk of a Christian life as it relates to the struggle with sin? Have there been times where people have spoken winsomely to you about sin in your life, that you’re just like, oh, this was so helpful? Can you talk about a time or two like that, and why that was so helpful? Because it’s a place where we can often do poorly as we seek to approach-

Rona:

Oh, goodness, yes.

Mike:

When have you been on the receiving end in a sense of good counsel or of someone who’s really helped you in the midst of a struggle with sin?

Rona:

Yeah, I can remember one of my college mentors. He is part of a ministry in Arkansas, and when I would come back for breaks from Korea, I guess there is a very ambitious, driven, performance-oriented side to me. And when I became a believer, it translated into my relationship with God. So, okay, if I’m called to be a missionary, then I will be the best missionary to go to the furthest people group and sacrifice the most. And it’s just so ridiculous, and I also struggle a great deal with contentment. I think I see what things could be no matter where I go and what I’m involved with.

And there is this discontentment I feel until it becomes what I envision it could be. And it can be a strength in terms of helping improve things, but personally, it’s just sometimes it points to a lot of self-focused desires and ambition and pride, and not a letting go of control and trusting the Lord. And I think that when I envisioned myself being a missionary, I didn’t see myself being one in soul. To college students with iPhones and technology, I thought I was going to go somewhere else, and I didn’t like it. And I remember especially the first few years, I’d come home, and I just complained to my college mentor, Andrew.

And I’d just say, “This is not what I want to do, and these college students with all their technology, what do they need?” I don’t know even what… It was so long ago. But I just remember he would listen to me carefully, and he wasn’t like, “You have a pride problem, and you need to be content with where the Lord has placed you.” But he just said, “What does contentment look like in this situation, and what does contentment look like for, contentment in the Lord?”

And I don’t know. The way that he would listen and ask me questions, it began to remove this, like everything else, this film on my eyes that these things that I desired and lusted after, success or achievement or whatever. I began to see how flat and devoid of substance they were compared to the weightiness and the glory of what God was calling us to. And I would leave the conversation thinking, oh, I’m so glad I came to this realization, but it was definitely with his help. And so I don’t know. He was just very good at gently and kindly pointing out areas where I needed to grow, contentment in the Lord being one of them.

Mike:

Yeah, I mean, just the fact that the way he approached you was with questions, in a sense. “What does contentment in this situation look like for you?” As opposed to, “You should be content, or let me tell you what contentment looks like, or let me take you to this particular passage.” But yeah, that’s really interesting how he engaged with you by pushing you carefully, gently to reflect on-

Rona:

Right.

Mike:

Yeah.

Rona:

Right.

Mike:

How about, again, the reverse of that? So you just described a winsome encounter in the midst of particular sin patterns. What about a non-winsome encounter, where someone challenged your sin in a way that was, in one sense, right in principle? They were right in the sense of, there was something amiss here, but the way it happened, it was not helpful to you.

Rona:

I think that it is, I mean, little instances. I mean, I could think of a lot of them for myself, when I did not do a good job of… But I think for me, it’s when there are quick solutions or quick assumptions made. For example, when I was sick on and off for over a year and missing class and church, I think the classmates or the friends that made the comment like, “Oh, where were you Sunday? Someone sleep in and miss church?” Or, “Someone doesn’t enjoy worshiping in the house of the Lord.” I just remember being so peeved and irked and just angry, like, “Who are you to…”

And yeah, I think that it’s assumptions made without really understanding where a person’s coming from, or what’s in their life at that time, or yeah. So it’s something like that. Little situations like that come to mind. I mean, for me, I can imagine so many, but especially when I first started discipleship with young women, I remember being… And it’s just so sad now. I remember one instance when a young women would tell me her struggles with meeting with the Lord and having daily devotional and time in the word.

And I remember just looking at her and saying, “Jesus said, ‘If you love me, you will keep my commands.’ And the Lord has commanded us to meditate on His word and to love Him with all of our hearts. So this means you just don’t love Jesus, and if you loved…” I don’t know what I was thinking and why someone would let me disciple someone else, but I just am appalled by how not-winsome I was, and probably still am, many times, in talking about sin. So yeah, there’s a lot of growth there.

Mike:

Yeah. I mean, I think each of us can look back over our lives and see those places where it’s like, oh, how could I have said that, or how could I have done that? And the Lord, I’m sure, is merciful to that young woman as well. But you’re highlighting just the growth trajectory that we all are on in terms of, how do we wisely approach others? I mean, are there things that you would say, yeah, recently even, that your learning in terms of that aspect, in terms of approaching sin winsomely in someone?

Rona:

Approaching sin winsomely… It’s such an interesting time. I feel like I don’t see anyone these days except for my fiance. This COVID world-

Mike:

Well, there’s plenty to talk about there.

Rona:

Yeah. This COVID world, my world is so small in terms of real human interaction. I mean, there is Zoom, but it’s so different. But yes, let’s see. Fiance. We’ll zoom into that relationship.

Mike:

And you can talk about how he’s approached you winsomely with sin in your life.

Rona:

Okay. I think that I don’t know if there’s been an intentional… I don’t know if we’ve done a good job of doing this, Mike. I know that we’re coming to realizations about ourselves through being in relationship with each other. It’s like when you’re with someone that much, it starts to reflect. You start to see a reflection of yourself, the good and the bad. And I’m seeing, in my relationship with Jordan, how I just feel this need to over plan and control, and it’s this kind of… I don’t even know where it’s coming from, but if I just make sure to plan enough or control enough of whatever situation, then we’re going to be okay, and I can [aleve 00:58:23] discomfort in the future.

And so just hop on my train, and let me plan this thing, and everything will be okay if we do it my way. And I’m just seeing that my way is just as important as his. And it’s just little things, when I don’t get my way, how angry I become. And I just didn’t know I was going to be like that, because I’ve been single. I’m 32. I think when you get married at an older age, you’ve become quite comfortable being on your own, so you’ve developed your own rhythms and your own way of style and way of doing things. And I thought I was a flexible person and go with the flow with my friends, but with Jordan, it’s just so different.

I realized I’m not. And I can think of a recent example, which is kind of what I’m alluding to. If I spend the whole day with him, we have had a lot of conflicts about meal times. And because I like to have three structured meals a day, and I like them to be at the same time, and when I don’t eat regularly, I become a very cranky toddler, and nothing is okay. And I eat at the same time every day, and a balanced meal, and Jordan, he’s not hungry at breakfast time. He’s sometimes hungry at lunch, and he eats just massive amounts of food for dinner.

So if I’m with him on a Saturday, and especially when we first started dating, I just remember being quiet all through the morning time, thinking, when can we eat breakfast together? And the lunch hours come, and it becomes two o’clock and three o’clock, and I’m just stewing inside, like, how could he not feed me? I was just outraged.

Mike:

Feed me.

Rona:

You say you love me, but you’re not giving me food. And it was so important to me to have three meals a day. And then I think I just blew up at some point, like, “How can you not think about me and feed me at meal times?” And he was just like, “You can eat anytime. I’m just not hungry.” And I’m like, “You’re the love of my life. Of course I want to eat all my meals with you, so I’m not going to just eat before you. I want to eat with you.” And so I just see my anger and my insistence on my way, and just assuming that this has to be what people fall in line with. And so I just see that a lot coming out with Jordan, and that is a desire to control, and a lot of pride that we are working through. I am, he is, we both are.

Mike:

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you’re highlighting just, yeah, the present work of God in your life conforming both of you to His image. So as you’re convicted by these things, how is He speaking to you? How is the Lord speaking to you through His word? You’ve become aware of, “Boy, I’m more controlling or more impatient than I thought I was.” How does the gospel meet you in those moments?

Rona:

Yeah. I think that one of the things I’m finding in… I mean, I know I painted a funny picture of it, but a lot of it is tied to the fact that when you’re on your own and you are needing to plan, I guess the mindset I believed my whole life is, if I don’t take care of it, and I don’t take care of myself, no one else will. And with Jordan, there is this person that is kind, who cares for me, who’s safe, and who wants my best, who has my best interest in his heart. And it’s a reflection of the Lord’s kindness to me as well. He is a loving father. He has always provided for me, and in the hardest seasons of my life, He has made a way, and He has brought me through it, and He has never forsaken me.

So I see this, do I really believe in the kindness of God, and can I trust that God is good? Can I trust that Jordan is good and kind and loves me, too? And if I can trust that, then maybe I don’t have to worry so much and plan and control and make sure everything’s going to be okay, and I can relax a little bit because I know that my father in heaven takes care of His people, takes care of His children, takes care of me. And I think that’s where it goes a lot. And one… I keep making examples of Jordan. He’s literally the only human I talk to in real life these days.

I cooked dinner one night. It was after work, and I was rushing, and I’m like, “You know what? I’m going to make a really good dinner.” I had my cast iron skillet. I was searing salmon, and it was going well. The perfectionist in me was like, these mashed potatoes, this salmon, this is a good meal, and I plated it very beautifully as well. It was just-

Mike:

That’s awesome.

Rona:

Yeah, it was very-

Mike:

You’re talking to a foodie, so I mean, I get it. I get it. Ooh, nice plate.

Rona:

Because if you sear it, you can burn it, you can overdo it, but it was soft and good on the inside, it was seared, and it was just good. And I was trying to do a million things at once, and I wanted so badly to cook a perfect meal for Jordan. And I balanced the plate. I plated one, and then I was balancing the plate on the counter. It was half off the counter, half on the counter, and I put the mashed potatoes on, and the plate flipped over. And the plate shattered, and perfect, seared salmon and mashed potatoes are all over the floor, and the plate is shattered also.

And I just broke into tears, and I kept saying, “It was so good. It was perfect. It was going to be really good, and I’m so sorry.” And Jordan just ran in, and he was like, “Are you okay?” And he just hugged me. And I just expected to be reprimanded or like, “Why are you so clumsy? Why are your motor skills so delayed?” Or just something, to be shamed. And I just was expecting, I guess, his voice to align with that voice of accusation that is so common in myself. And all he did was just, “Oh, it’s fine. We’ll just make a frozen pizza and share the plate that didn’t fall.” And he was helping me clean it up. And I don’t know. I just feel like that’s the Lord’s posture a lot towards me.

Like, “Rona, you’re not meant to carry these heavy burdens. You can come to me, and I take these things that are heavy, this heavy load.” And it’s just this radical grace and kindness from the Lord. Even in the midst of my pride and my controlling and my sin, when I get before the face of God, that is what I sense is, “You can let go. I’ve got this, and you can lay your burdens down.”

Mike:

Wow, that’s a wonderful place, I think, to end our conversation. In some ways, it comes full circle, in terms of the welcome, the radical grace and hospitality of the Lord bringing you into His family, and then just what you said here in this last story in terms of Jordan’s kindness to you in that moment, his embrace of you in that moment just mirroring what the Lord does with us and in our mess, right?

Rona:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mike:

“Come to me. Come to me, all you who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest.”

Rona:

Amen.

Mike:

Rona, thank you so much for this time. Really appreciate your honesty and opening up your life to me, so thank you so much.

Rona:

Thanks so much for having me. It was so nice getting to talk to you, Mike.