Stories from Saints, Sufferers, & Sinners – Episode 3: Sarah

Transcript:

When a fellow believer shares his or her story with you, what grabs your attention? Are there certain themes you listen for? Are there commonalities amidst the diversity and complexity of our individual stories, experiences that we share and that map on to a basic framework of understanding? I’m glad to welcome you as a listener to this podcast. I’m Mike Emlet, counselor and faculty member at the Christian Counseling and Educational Foundation, CCEF. In conjunction with the release of my new book, Saints, Sufferers, and Sinners: Loving Others As God Loves Us, you’re about to hear a new podcast series during which I’ll interview several of my colleagues at CCEF.

During these conversations, we’ll explore the intersection of three struggles common to each of us as believers in Christ. The first is the struggle to ground our foundational identity in our relationship with Jesus Christ. “Who am I really” and “How do I live each day in light of that identity” is a question we find ourselves revisiting often as believers. What does it truly mean to live as a daughter or son of our Heavenly Father, a saint who is secure in Christ? The second is the struggle with suffering. We all wrestle with various hardships and afflictions, whether they arise from bodily weakness, relationships, or the situational challenges of life, whether they be traffic jams, financial hardships, or pandemics. How do we draw near to God who is an ever present help in times of trouble? How do we help others do that?

Third is the struggle with sin. We all wrestle with the evil that dwells within our hearts and our erupts in words and deeds that harm others and ourselves. How do we reckon with the fact that as the Apostle Paul says, when I want to do good, evil is right there with me? How does God help us grow in holiness? Moreover, how do we speak wisely and winsomely to those mired in sin? As Christians, we share the experience of simultaneously being saints, sufferers, and sinners. Knowing one another and loving one another well requires that we attend to these three foundational experiences. So join me now in listening to stories from saints, sufferers, and sinners.

Today I’ll be speaking with Sarah Gammage. Sarah works part-time in customer service at CCEF. She and her husband, Anthony, were involved in campus ministry for many years and now serve together in a local church where Anthony is lead pastor. Sarah enjoys supporting her husband in various ways behind the scenes while also giving leadership to the women’s Bible study and singing with the worship ministry at their church. One of her favorite roles is being mom to their two teenagers, Maddie and Asher.

As I’ve been doing with each podcast, let me guide your listening just a bit by pointing to a few things. First, the nature of sanctification. As Christians, God has freed us from bondage to sin and is conforming us to the character of Christ. But how does that look? What is the experience like?

We talk about the fact that holiness is not simply sinning less and less, but having a growing awareness of the depth and extent of your sin, coupled with a growing awareness of God’s holiness, which is an intolerable gap, unless it is filled by the cross of Christ.

Notice also how Sarah talks about identity in Christ as “Him drawing near.” Being a saint fundamentally means that we are not alone, and that’s a theme you’ll hear woven throughout the podcast. Later, Sarah tells a beautiful story about how members of her small group ministered to their family. That reminds us that we love sinners well, not only in word, but also in deed.

And then lastly, if you’re a parent with children at home, you’ll hear Sarah talk about the importance of asking questions to get to the heart of the matter, rather than just reacting in frustration to our children’s behavior. You’ll be encouraged by something that helps Sarah in the midst of her parenting failures, namely that your kids don’t need perfect parents. They need repentant parents.

 

Mike:

Well, Sarah, I’m really thankful for the opportunity to talk with you today, and to hear more about your life and your journey with Christ. So thank you for taking the time to talk with me.

Sarah:

Yeah, happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Mike:

Good. I always like to start with getting a sense of how you came to know the Lord. What’s your story of the Lord drawing you into his family?

Sarah:

Yeah. So, I expressed faith in Christ when I was only six years old. I grew up in a Christian family, and we often had family devotions after dinner. And so, we had been talking about the fact that we, as people, have, in my six year old term, a dirty heart, where our natural tendency is not to obey God, and not to please Him, and not to follow after Him, and we need Jesus who died on the cross for our sins to save us, we need to trust that. I was starting, of course, in my six year old way, to understand those things. So I prayed with my parents after family devotions. And really, I would say, I started experiencing, at a very young age, just the benefits of a Christian home, of a community, a good church, a good youth group, or I could grow, study the Bible, I’d go on missions’ trips. And we actually started talking about this big word called sanctification.

Mike:

What is that word?

Sarah:

This idea that God has freed us from the bondage of sin, and is making us to look more and more like himself. And so, in my young mind, junior high, high school, I interpreted that as, “Well, okay then, I should probably be seeing my sin less and less as I grow, because Jesus is making me look more and more like himself,” but it was actually hard for me, because that was not what I was experiencing. Actually, as I grew, I was seeing my sin more and more, and, of course, my response was, “Well, what’s going on here?” Shame, hiding, a lot of trying to cover or blame shift for my sin. So, anyway, really, I would say, there was a turning point. I guess I would have been about, I guess, early to mid 20s, when someone took me aside, and showed me something called the cross chart.

So you can Google that, but basically, just to sum it up, it basically depicts that, as we walk with Jesus, we’re actually becoming more and more aware of our sin, because we’re becoming more and more aware at the same time of Christ’s holiness, of God’s perfection, and the disparity between what we offer and what he offers, who we are and who he is. And, as a result, the only thing to bridge that gap is the cross of Jesus. And, really, what the beautiful part of the whole chart was, is just seeing how the beauty of the cross grows over the Christian life, because we see, “Oh, man, this is really what Jesus did for me,” and it becomes more and more amazing, I guess, is what I’m getting at.

So, that actually really freed me. I was really trapped in my own performance. I was trapped, and trying to please God, and trying to please others, and just recognizing that the Christian life is not about being perfect. It’s actually learning this waltz between repentance and forgiveness; running into Jesus in those moments of sin, or shame, or failure, and not trying to cover them up, or make excuses, but running to him and thanking him for what he has already done on my behalf. So, that was just a huge life turning events, and I feel like, since then, I’ve just been working that out and trying to figure out what that looks like on a daily basis. So, that’s still in progress to this day.

Mike:

Hence the progressive aspect of our sanctification, our growth in Christ. That cross chart was also helpful to me. I mean, I think that originated with Paul Miller when he was at World Harvest mission, now Surge. And it’s actually in his book, A Praying Life, if listeners are to check that out, but, just that idea that, as we see our sin more clearly… Actually, we’re freed to see our sin in a sense more clearly, rather than either cover it up, or move into a place of despair, because the Lord, his cross bridges the gap between God’s holiness on Earth, and our sin. So, that was actually also helpful to me in the Christian life as well.

Sarah:

That’s cool. I like what you said it frees us up to see our sin, because I think, until you know it’s covered, it’s so scary to look at. It’s scary to acknowledge, but once you know that Jesus has covered it, and forgiven it, and paid the debt for it, it’s a lot easier to acknowledge that, “I need Jesus. I did again. I did it again, I need his mercy and grace still.”

Mike:

That’s right. I once had a pastor who would point out something in his life, some place of immediate growth, he would say, “Oh, yes. And you don’t know the half of it. You don’t-

Sarah:

That’s exactly right. That is scratching the surface. That’s right. That’s exactly right.

Mike:

But it’s challenging to live out of our identity in Christ, that you know that we’re the loved son or daughter. I mean, how have you seen that, over time, play out in your own life? How does your awareness that you’re secure in Christ help you in facing suffering and sin in your life?

Sarah:

Yeah. I think, in my life, something that I say a lot to my soul, is, “Sarah, you are not alone. You’re not an orphan, you’re not on your own. There’s a loving God who’s got you, and has your best interest at heart, even when it doesn’t appear that circumstances are working for your favor. There’s something going on behind the scenes that you’re not aware of.” And that’s just given me a lot of stability in my life to take steps of faith, to do things that normally I wouldn’t be eager to do or wouldn’t feel qualified to do, but as the Lord presents opportunities, I think, “Well, I’m going to go forward with Him in this,” and sometimes that’s suffering, sometimes that’s just steps of faith, and even good ways. But, yeah, just knowing that I’m not alone is just a huge… It’s a huge frame factor in life to continue taking one step at a time.

Mike:

Because so often, this idea of identity in Christ and being secure in Him, it can feel so abstract, and so, what you’re talking about is something that’s obviously much more personal, and in the moment, “I am not alone. He’s with me. He’s walking with me by His Spirit.” So it’s not just once and done, you’re in the family. Hey, he’s with you. He’s within you.

Sarah:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It’s huge. It changes everything.

Mike:

I mean, what are some ways now in which… I mean, you’ve been walking with Christ for a long time, what are some places where you find it challenging to live out of this settled and secure place in Christ?

Sarah:

I mean, I think I still definitely struggle with the fear of man, fearing what others think of me, more than resting in that secure identity that it really doesn’t matter. As I step out in faith, and walk with Jesus, I’m loved, my identity is not in what people think of me, is what I’m getting at. So, that, for sure, is a place that I struggle to live out of my secure identity.

And actually, I’ve made a practice of, when an opportunity comes across my plate, or I’m asked to do something that I feel inadequate to do, which, that’s always my default is, “Oh, someone could do this better than me,” I make a practice to stop and to not say no right away, but to give it some time and just talk to the Lord about it, and see if maybe this is the way he wants me to serve, and just make sure that I’m not just defaulting to that fear, that fear of man, but I’m defaulting to, “Is this something that I’m being called to do by faith?” And not worrying so much about how I’ll be perceived, or if I’ll fail, the fear of failure, but is this something that God wants me to try or to embark on?

Mike:

You’re highlighting just one of the places where we can gravitate to false identities, like we are who others say we are, or we are what others think about us. And, for other people, it’s, we are what we do, or we are what we have. There’s so many other places where we can… I think, where we as Christians always are battling against false identities. So, you’re describing one of those places where we can be fearing what others think of us, and that is our well-being if we’re thought well off.

Sarah:

And it hinders. It hinders from seeing the Lord show up in ways you could have never imagined, because I’m afraid to take that step, because I’m afraid of what people will think. So, it has been neat as… Just looking back over the trajectory of my life, I can see where just the Lord has shown up and really done some amazing things that wouldn’t have happened if I would have succumbed to my fear, failure or fear of what people would think. So, still work in progress, for sure.

Mike:

Definitely. And I think, in one sense, your highlight, you can say quite this way, but it’s your security in Christ gives you courage in those moments to press in against your fears.

Sarah:

Absolutely.

Mike:

What about in the context of suffering? I mean, you alluded this, I think, when you were talking about, “He’s with me, I’m not alone in this,” but could you talk a little bit more about your settled place as a beloved daughter has helped you in the midst of suffering?

Sarah:

Well, again, like I said, just not being alone in it. I think something else that really helps me in suffering is knowing that Jesus himself has suffered, that He gets it. This is not unknown to him, and the fact that He is my brother, Jesus, my brother, God, my father, the fact that they understand, Jesus understands firsthand what I’m experiencing, and knows how to meet my needs more than I know how to pray, is just a huge, huge relief. Sometimes, in suffering, I’ve just cried out to Him with no real words, but just tears, and just that inward sense of the Spirit going on my behalf and interpreting those tears, is just a real… It’s just a gift in the midst of suffering when you can’t tell which end is up.

Mike:

I mean, you’re saying that it’s not just that you’re not alone, or that He’s with you, but He’s actually inhabited your shoes. And, really, he’s gone farther into suffering than any of us ever could. So we have a savior who is not just with us, but he’s inhabited that place of suffering, the incarnation itself is that.

Sarah:

Amen.

Mike:

Staying on this theme of suffering, have there been times when people have ministered well to you as a sufferer, they’ve been able to be winsome in that. So, what’s that been like? Can you give some examples of that?

Sarah:

Sure. Yeah. Well, I have been ministered to very well in suffering. I mean, honestly, just when people have come alongside me and listened, asked questions, truly entered in with me, not trying to fix it, but willing to cry out to the Lord with me, has been just a big gift in the midst of suffering. Also, one story I’m thinking of is a time when some friends really met some tangible needs in the midst of suffering. One season in particular, it was Christmas time, and my husband and I were really overwhelmed with life. I had just gotten off the couch after healing from six weeks of a pretty traumatic second childbirth, and around that same time, my father-in-law actually died from complications of heart surgery. And so, we were headed out of town to go to the funeral, and had no time to really prepare our home for Christmas, let alone our hearts for Christmas. We were just in this whirlwind.

And we came back from this trip out of town to our house just weary. It was a wonderful time to be with family, but we were just tired and overwhelmed still. And, we opened the door to our house, and someone from our home group at church had somehow… I still don’t know how this happened, but somehow found a way into our house and completely decorated our house for Christmas, setting up the tree, and candles, and lights. So we walked in, I just cried. I was so thankful, I just couldn’t believe the lengths that people had gone to just think out of the box, to think of something that we wouldn’t have been able to do, and really just met tangible needs in some really meaningful ways. So, it turned out to be a really sweet Christmas in the midst of the sorrow, just because of how we were loved.

Mike:

That’s a great story, and it’s really highlighting that our words matter, obviously, and, how do we use our words? Do we use them to fix, or do we use them to console? But also the deeds; what actions, how can we move into someone’s life in very tangible ways? And that’s just a great example of just a huge blessing and surprise that you guys received.

Sarah:

Absolutely. It was really precious.

Mike:

The converse can happen as well, though. We don’t sometimes minister well to others in the midst of suffering. So, have there been times where you’ve been, I guess, either on the receiving, or the giving end of unhelpful ways of moving into someone’s suffering?

Sarah:

It’s hard for me to think of an example when someone has not loved me well in suffering, which I count as a gift.

Mike:

That’s an incredible blessing.

Sarah:

Yeah. Nothing comes to mind on the surface, but being in ministry, I have seen some of this happen in the lives of others. I had a friend with cancer who talked about well-meaning people coming up to her and saying, “If you just considered maybe a vegetarian diet, I bet that would go a long way,” and trying to be helpful, for sure, but in the moment, it just feels unloving. So, I think, some of the other examples that come to mind are, I think when people try to heal wounds lightly, maybe slapping a scripture verse,” Well, God’s ways are just higher than our ways, and good things will come of this, and God’s working all things together for your good.” And while those things are absolutely true, in the moment, what they need is someone to cry with them, and to cry out with them to the Lord, and just to acknowledge that this is really hard, and we don’t see what’s happening.

I absolutely get it. People want to help. It’s hard to see someone’s suffering. So, in no way am I condemning the helpers who are trying to help, but sometimes there are no easy solutions or quick fixes. So, learning to lament with people in their suffering just goes a really long way.

Mike:

I think, that’s really important. It means you’re highlighting… And actually, there’s a phrase that comes to mind from Pastor Zack Eswine in one of his books where he talks about us living with inconsolable things this side of glory. That there are certain things that just won’t be made right until glory. And particularly in those places for us to give pat answers or trite answers, it generally is not helpful. Helping someone, as you say, helping someone lament and grieve those inconsolable things, walk alongside them, help them in tangible ways is so important.

Do you have anything on the giving side, like places where you have not ministered well to someone who’s suffering that you look back and say, “I wish I would have done this”

Sarah:

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I think an easy one for me is just with my kids; wanting to fix it, again, instead of listening, instead of coming alongside, wanting to look for all the options of what we could do, or why are you feeling this way? And, not patiently coming alongside. I think I could say the same with their sin. It’s easier to yell at that and say, “What are you doing?” Than to come alongside and say, “Well, where is this coming from? Let’s talk through this,” and, “Are you fearing?” Where their identity? So it’s also exposing my own heart when I’m yelling at them. It’s certainly not helping the situation, but coming alongside them in a gentle way is a lot more effective long-term. Let’s put it that way. With their heart.

Mike:

Short term gain, it seems, and saying, “Hey, what are you doing?”. Even that falls flat really quickly.

Sarah:

It does give opportunity, I will say, to go back to them and to say, “Mom was wrong. I was wrong for flying off the handle,” and it has given me opportunity to demonstrate the gospel to them, and say this is a daily thing for me, and I’m still finding areas that I’m needy, and that I’m quick to anger. So, God can redeem it in those ways, which is a real sweet thing.

Mike:

That’s right. Being able to model in a sense, ultimately, that dependence on the Lord and saying, “I blew it here.” And sometimes with our kids, well, with adults too, but it can be confusing to know, what falls into the realm of suffering, and what are issues of sin? I was thinking about, sometimes our children’s bedtimes, one of my children had a lot of problems going to sleep at night, and looking back now, I think, “Ah,” that was more fear than rebelliousness, and I would have handled it very differently.

Sarah:

Totally.

Mike:

So, I think sometimes what’s principally suffering, we shift into the same category.

Sarah:

That’s right. That’s right. Instead of asking questions and finding out where it’s coming from, it changes the whole perspective. A lot of times, too, with my kids, if they’re just acting out, or just doing things that are so frustrating, often it’s anxiety and fear, kind of what you’re saying, just this, things are hard at school, or… And so, I found that what you’re saying is talking with them and getting a fuller picture. Sometimes they’re not even aware where it’s coming from, or they’re just as frustrated as we are on the opposite end. So, it does, it brings a whole lot to light when I can stop and take a breath, and go, “How am I responding here? What needs to happen?”

Mike:

Taking the time to listen, to questions, and not make assumptions about where their heart’s at.

Sarah:

Absolutely.

Mike:

Still in this realm or this theme of suffering, what places in scripture have been really helpful to you in the midst of your suffering?

Sarah:

Well, the first one that comes to mind is Psalm 139. That is my go-to, my favorite. I memorized it when I was a kid, and it just stuck with me, which I really think shows a lot, or says a lot about memorizing when you’re young, because I know that my brain just doesn’t hold on to things the same way now, but …

Mike:

Well, Sarah, give it to us now. Why don’t you just… I’m going to put you in that spot.

Sarah:

That’s right. I probably could, but knowing I’m on the spot might change things a little bit, but Psalm 139, it really does just remind me, oh Lord, you have searched me and you know me. And you know when I sit, when I rise, and you perceive my thoughts from afar, and you just serve my going out, my lying down, you’re familiar with all my ways, and… I mean, it’s just such a beautiful remembrance of the fact that, again, He’s there, I’m not alone, but more than that, he knows the intricacies of my mind and my heart, and he has planned out my steps before one day even came to be, and there’s no way I can escape from Him. He’s always there, He’s always thinking of me. When I wake up, I am still with you. Just these beautiful pictures of the fact that He is just this tender, loving Father that has been familiar with me before I even knew that I existed.

So, to me, is just such a comforting reminder when I’m in the midst of suffering. Another single verse that I really love and go to a lot is in Isaiah, and I forget. I did write down the reference, because I always forget what it is; 41:13, it says, “For I am the Lord, your God, who takes hold of your right hand and says to you, do not fear, I will help you.” And I think just the picture, again, of a tender Father just taking hold of my hand and saying, “It’s okay. I’ve got this. I’m with you.” As we would do to one of our kids if they were afraid, or walking into something unknown. So that’s been a go-to verse to me through the years, just through some of the ups and downs. Just, He’s telling me, “I’ve got you.” Takes hold of my right hand and says “I’m here.” So, there’s some overlapping themes, I feel like, in this podcast.

Mike:

No doubt.

Sarah:

The, “I am not alone” theme.

Mike:

Yes, that’s exactly what I was thinking, because both Psalm 139, and the Isaiah passage highlight the nearness, and known-ness of us before the Lord. So, yeah, that’s really that’s really neat how that’s reinforcing going right along with, “I’m not alone. He’s with me.” And, again, not even just beside me, He grabs my hand. He’s that close, He’s that tender.

Sarah:

A tangible act.

Mike:

So we’ve been talking about suffering and the ways in which we’ve either been ministered to well, or not so well, how about in the realm of our growth in Christ, in terms of, have there been times when people have come to you in a very helpful way to speak into your life on areas of sin, and if so, what’s that been like? And, both of us, we’re highlighting the places where we’ve blown it in terms of the, particularly with our children, maybe not addressing sin very winsomely. What about winsomely? When does that happen to you?

Sarah:

Yeah. So, there is a time that jumps into my mind, I remember a time in particular, I was feeling the nudge of the Holy Spirit to lead in a certain area of the church, where there was a glaring need. And, as I said, my first default is, “Oh, certainly not me. There’s certainly someone could do this better than I could,” and was feeling insecure. So, I didn’t do it. I didn’t step up right away, but I was talking it over with the Lord, and just wondering if I should do this, but I just really was insecure and fearful, and giving into those tendencies. And, an older woman in our church, a dear sister, took me aside one day… I mean, I was wrestling with the Lord for a week or so, and she’s like, “Can I talk to you for a minute?” I was like, “Oh, sure, sure” So she just very lovingly and kindly encouraged me to think about this role.

And she had no idea of my insecurities, she didn’t know that I was wrestling with the Holy Spirit over this, but she just felt the nudge, and felt like she needed to talk to me, and just… She was so kind and gentle, she just asked questions of why I was worried, or what were my insecurities, and what was I thinking? And she prayed with me, and honestly, I was in tears before it was all said and done, because I just thought how sweet of the Lord to prompt someone to come alongside me to really engage my fear, and to engage where I was not resting in my secure identity as a child of God. And so, we prayed together, and even as I stepped into that leadership role, it was just really sweet to have her there to fall back on and go, “Hey, can you pray for me about this, and pray for me as I walk into this.”

And then of course, it was a joy to actually experience the Lord working through me in that role, which I would have missed out on if I hadn’t done it. But just her winsomeness, and coming alongside me, and just gently… It wasn’t harsh, it wasn’t condemning, it was just a simple question asking stance that she came into my life with. So, really, it was just a time of discipleship that I remember.

Mike:

But it’s so helpful. You could see a decision point where a person could come to you, and browbeat you into it, like, “What’s wrong with you? Step to the plate.” And you might have done it, but it just… With what we even talked about in terms of fear, man, you might have just said, “Okay, yeah,” but it wouldn’t have had the settled sense of being led by this person before the Lord to come, in a sense, to lay your heart bare, but very carefully, and then to say, “Yes, Lord, I don’t want to respond in fear.” So that’s it, or the opposite extreme, like, “I don’t know. This is between her and the Lord, I don’t think I’m going to even get involved.” And so, what a wonderful mediating path for her to come alongside you in that way.

Sarah:

Yeah. She really modeled for me how to do that. So I think there’s also been times in my own life where I’m like, “Oh, remember how she did this for me? Maybe that…” As I sense the Lord’s prompting to do that with others, she just gave me a great model to follow after to come alongside.

Mike:

Does anything come to mind there in terms of what you just said, in terms of places where you’ve been, in recent memory, where it’s like, maybe you were hesitant to go into someone’s life, but after the fact, you’re like, “I’m really thankful I listened to the Spirit’s prompting, and was able to walk with this person?”

Sarah:

I mean, my kids always jump to my mind, but I’m trying to think of…

Mike:

Well, that’s fine, too.

Sarah:

Well, I think, just different things in parenting. We’ve talked about this a little bit, just coming alongside and asking more questions. My friend has really taught me that, and has helped me to think through those things. I’m sorry, I’m not bringing out the…

Mike:

No, that’s fine.

Sarah:

… That example right now, but…

Mike:

I think just you highlighting the slowing down, and the minute you see that in the ministry of Jesus, and often when He asks very probing questions, but… I’m thinking of the woman at the well in John 4, and just how carefully, slowly he got to the heart of the matter for her, and… We can be very impatient with that process.

Sarah:

In fact, sometimes I’m like, “Oh, Lord, please help me to know how to ask questions.” I feel like that’s a whole other ballgame, is figuring how to get to the heart zone. Still working on that, too.

Mike:

Yeah, I think that’s right. I think in the past, maybe I would have focused on just things that I observed; you did this, what’s up with that? Versus, and you highlighted this earlier, sometimes even outright sin that we see, anger, destructive behavior, or something like that, behind that is shame, or fear, or grief. And so it’s important to ask those kinds of questions to tease that out.

This is a broad a broad question; many people have spoken many things into your life over the years, but what would you say are some of the most helpful things that were said to you, and why were they so helpful?

Sarah:

Yeah. I think one of the most helpful things that was said to me, and again, you talked about this a little bit, but someone said to me once that your kids don’t need a perfect parent, they need a repentant parents. And that has really set me free a lot on this parenting journey. And really, I mean, in many realms of life, that, they don’t need a perfect leader, they need a repentant leader. You can apply it to so many different areas, but just that idea that we run to Jesus, and run into Jesus is actually modeling what the Christian life is. And, for my kids in particular, they’re not going to be perfect kids, and they’re not going to grow up to be perfect adults or perfect parents themselves. And so, being able to model for them, that that’s actually not the goal, the goal is not perfection, the goal is repentance. The goal is just running to Jesus quicker, just when that sin happens, when those failures happen, just running to Him.

And, it’s not intuitive to run to Jesus when we sin. It’s not intuitive, because you want to cower, you want to hide, like Adam and Eve in the garden. They ran and they hid. That is our bents, that’s our nature. But, I think that, that perspective of that that’s not just okay to do, but running to Jesus is actually the right thing to do. That’s what he longs for, to be with us in that sin and suffering. So, modeling that through wherever it be, may be at parenting or leadership, or wherever, even as a friend, that really has set me free to know that it’s not about perfection. So, it’s about running to Jesus.

Mike:

And that’s really good news for recovering Pharisees like me. It’s easy to either cover it, or move into a place of, “How can I fix this, or what do I need to do?” Or move into a place of self pity, but that doesn’t promote the aroma of Christ. There’s only one remedy for us then, and you’re highlighting that, that actually modeling that dependence, and that weakness, and our own brokenness and sin to those around us is really important, but hard to do, because we want to mean… In spite of everything we’ve been talking about it in terms of foundation in our security in Christ, how easy it is to resort to, I mean, to look a certain way, or be a certain way. I don’t like weakness.

Sarah:

Right, right. We want to prop ourselves up, and we want to look better than we really are, and that’s not what the Christian life looks like. I mean, just going back to the cross chart, as I see more and more of the beauty of the cross of who Christ is and what he’s done, that’s really where it’s at, not seeing how… I’m not depending on my holiness, I’m depending on his, and that’s what’s not intuitive. We’re trying to make it on our own, and that’s just… We’re going to fall flat every time. It’s definitely a whole life of learning and transformation.

Mike:

It is. I mean, what would you say for you now? Where do you see the Lord at work? What’s He putting his finger on? How is He coming near you in the midst of particular struggles that you have now? What are you noticing? What’s been fresh, so to speak?

Sarah:

Well, I would say after 11 months of this pandemic, I’ve been under one roof-

Mike:

And counting.

Sarah:

Yes, and counting. That’s right. With my family, we’ve all been under one roof. My kids are still in virtual school since. It’s been 11 months, they haven’t gone back in-person yet. Hopefully soon, but… So, in a given day, they’re up in their rooms doing virtual school, I’m in the dining room doing my work, and my husband’s in the basement doing his work. And, I was actually laughing yesterday, because this came to my head, and I thought, “Oh, boy, Lord, you’re really giving me content for tomorrow’s podcast.”

Mike:

Excellent.

Sarah:

So, I mean, as much as I love, I have really loved the impromptu conversations, just some of the neat together time that we’ve had as a family, there have also been so many moments of frustration, and yesterday, just held a lot of those. The kids come and down on their lunch breaks, or on their study halls, and they just want to process the day, and they’re… And here I am trying to… I’m thinking through this podcast, and I’m thinking through my work, I’m trying to get stuff done. So, bottom line, is my agenda was not happening, and I’m clinging to control here, like, what can I possibly cling to, to get some stuff done today?

By noon, already four or five interruptions have happened, and I had to go to them and say, “Guys, I’m sorry. I’m trying to push my agenda, and I love hearing what’s going on, and thanks for being patient with mom.” So, I would say, to answer your question, I feel like it’s just these daily moments, these daily hearts, anger, control, me being an introvert, here’s another example, I just don’t have much time to myself. You’re in a household of people, and there’s always someone passing through, and… So, again, relinquishing my preferences, and still being honest with, “Hey, I’m going to take just a few minutes to just quiet my mind.” And, they’re very respectful of that, too, but, I think where my heart can go is, “I’m so frustrated, and I’m angry.”

And, I’ll say, I didn’t know I had so much anger until I’m trapped… Not trapped, but you know what I mean, with my family. So, anyway, I feel like that picture of the toothpaste, too, being squeezed, and whatever is inside is going to come out, and I feel like my toothpaste tube is squeezed. I feel like anger comes out, and frustration, and resentfulness. So, there’s a lot there. So, just again, instead of beating myself up or wallowing in shame over my actions, I’m just learning to run to Jesus to confess to Him what’s going on, and even process with Him, like, what is going on? And then running to my kids and my husband and saying, “I need your forgiveness here, and help me with this. Pray with me.” So, it’s been good.

Mike:

The close quarters definitely brings multiple opportunities for these daily moments. And I like what you’re doing in terms of just highlighting in one sense, that just a very mundane aspect of day to day life. Growing in Christ is not this, generally, this big, huge leap, and fireworks, and it’s like, “Did I not squeeze the toothpaste [crosstalk 00:49:04] literally?” Or, “Did I leave the dirty dishes for someone else to do, or did I yell at someone, because of the dirty dishes in the sink?”

Sarah:

Right, right.

Mike:

And how much of living out our identity as sons and daughters of the King, is in those micro moments of life.

Sarah:

Something else, too, is we’re talking about living out life with other people. That’s another way I’ve been challenged through this pandemic, is, I’ve just been recognizing, we’re not made to be little islands. And, I think right now, it takes a lot of effort to connect with other friends, and the body of Christ, and people that we might not see on a day to day basis, especially in this pandemic world that we’re living in. So, that’s also been something that the Holy Spirit has been challenging me, and just meaningful community. So, I’m really thankful that our women’s Bible study at church, as well as our home group with Church, both had virtual options. So that’s been a nice outlet, but even just being sensitive to the Holy Spirit’s prompting of texting someone, or calling someone, or taking walks, initiating a walk with someone just to, not only to reach out to them, but I think it’s also good for my own soul to just recognize there’s other people’s lives going on, and there’s a lot more happening than what’s in our little household.

And it’s just been stretching, but it’s been really fruitful and encouraging, once I’ve taken those steps to do it. Again, it doesn’t always come natural for an introvert like me to take those initial steps, but I need my brothers and sisters.

Mike:

That’s right.

Sarah:

[crosstalk 00:51:12] when it’s happened.

Mike:

And, I think because of the pandemic, just a natural built-in rhythms that… It’s like, we go to Bible center, we go to home group, or we go to church. You really having to be self conscious about doing that in many cases. And again, highlighting that, and woven all throughout our conversation is other people. This is not a solo operation. There’s a… What’s that… It’s a book by a Tod Bolsinger, called, It Takes A Church to Raise a Christian, and say that there’s this sense in which I need other people in my suffering, and I need other people in my struggle with sin. So, you’re highlighting that and the need for proactivity in that.

Sarah:

And unless we’re rubbing shoulders, we don’t know how people are suffering, and they don’t know how we’re suffering. Sometimes we don’t see sin in our lives, and we need people who are coming alongside us and looking from the outside in. So, it gets me out of my little shell to have those landmarks like home group, where we’re sharing what’s really going on, and how is scripture hitting you this week, and where are you filling your need this week? And so, those are things that you sometimes wouldn’t naturally stop to think about, unless you have people speaking in and asking those questions.

Mike:

Well, I am just very grateful for the time, Sarah, for us to talk and to just consider your life in Christ, and our lives together in Christ. So, thank you for taking the time. I really appreciate it.