Stories from Saints, Sufferers, & Sinners – Episode 4: Jen

Transcript:

When a fellow believer shares his or her story with you, what grabs your attention? Are there certain themes you listen for? Are there commonalities amidst the diversity and complexity of our individual stories, experiences that we share and that map on to a basic framework of understanding? I’m glad to welcome you as a listener to this podcast. I’m Mike Emlet, counselor and faculty member at the Christian Counseling and Educational Foundation, CCEF. In conjunction with the release of my new book, Saints, Sufferers, and Sinners: Loving Others As God Loves Us, you’re about to hear a new podcast series during which I’ll interview several of my colleagues at CCEF.

During these conversations, we’ll explore the intersection of three struggles common to each of us as believers in Christ. The first is the struggle to ground our foundational identity in our relationship with Jesus Christ. “Who am I really” and “How do I live each day in light of that identity” is a question we find ourselves revisiting often as believers. What does it truly mean to live as a daughter or son of our Heavenly Father, a saint who is secure in Christ? The second is the struggle with suffering. We all wrestle with various hardships and afflictions, whether they arise from bodily weakness, relationships, or the situational challenges of life, whether they be traffic jams, financial hardships, or pandemics. How do we draw near to God who is an ever present help in times of trouble? How do we help others do that?

Third is the struggle with sin. We all wrestle with the evil that dwells within our hearts and our erupts in words and deeds that harm others and ourselves. How do we reckon with the fact that as the Apostle Paul says, when I want to do good, evil is right there with me? How does God help us grow in holiness? Moreover, how do we speak wisely and winsomely to those mired in sin? As Christians, we share the experience of simultaneously being saints, sufferers, and sinners. Knowing one another and loving one another well requires that we attend to these three foundational experiences. So join me now in listening to stories from saints, sufferers, and sinners.

Today I have the privilege of speaking with Jen Jang. Jen received her MS Ed in counseling from the University of Pennsylvania and her MA in counseling from Westminster Theological Seminary. She completed her counseling field work at an intensive outpatient center, CCEF, and the Philadelphia Renewal Network. Currently she works for CCEF’s School of Biblical Counseling as the student services and partnerships assistant. She also serves as communications director and counseling intern at her church. Her favorite activities include discovering new music, hiking, spending quality time with family and friends and photography. She is passionate about seeing biblical counseling become integrated into different contexts, cultures and churches.

Here are several things to notice as you listen to our conversation. Jen makes the connection between identity and purpose that who we are in Christ drives daily mission and that even the smallest things we do are invested with kingdom meaning and purpose. She also speaks a lot about being a saint who suffers and how suffering has grown her security in Christ as well as confidence that the furthering of God’s kingdom and her good are intertwined in suffering. That’s the perspective I know I need to return to again and again. I also love Jen’s metaphors of the Christian life as a woven tapestry or a story authored by God that is part of a much bigger story of redemption in Jesus Christ. That’s a theme that resurfaces at several points in our conversation.

And then finally listen for the stories of her friends who mixed hospitality, compassion, encouragement, validation, and truth-telling into their ministry to Jen. I’m always encouraged when I hear these stories and I think, “I want to be that person who ministers so helpfully to others in their suffering.” So ask yourself, “What am I hearing that may help me come alongside a struggling brother or sister even this week?”

 

Mike:

Well Jen, it’s a real honor to sit down and to talk with you today, so thank you for agreeing to be a part of this podcast here. I was really looking forward to it.

Jen:

Well, thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to talk with you, and just to share a bit about what God has done, not only in my life, but all the lives of those who also shared their stories. I really think it’s such a privilege and honor, and I’m so excited to be here and talk with you.

Mike:

Yeah, well great. I’ve enjoyed every conversation I’ve had. It’s been so edifying and encouraging, and helpful for me, so I have no doubt that our time today will be similar. So yeah, I’d love to start out just hearing a bit about your story of coming to know the Lord. What has that journey been like?

Jen:

Right, so I do believe that I grew up being Christian by the grace of God just at a young age. I’m not exactly sure when, but because my parents are both Christian and they attended church, I went with them. And so growing up, I don’t know exactly when I became Christian, but I knew that I had believed in Christ as my Savior. But then this all kind of came to a sudden rude awakening when I was a senior in high school.

I was very active in youth group, on the leadership board. I loved serving, loved being active, but then it was senior year so I was about to graduate. And as you know, there’s something called senior week for a lot of high schools, and it’s when seniors get to go out together for a week. They get to just have fun together. And so my friends were actually planning to go to Canada to see the Niagara Falls, but then at the same time our youth group was deciding to go to Haiti for a mission trip. And so I was in this dilemma should I go to senior week, or should I go to Haiti. And I decided to go to Haiti, but… I’ll tell a bit more about the reason why later. So yeah, I had decided to go to Haiti instead and so I said no to the senior week, no to having that fun. I mean not that missions is not fun.

Mike:

A different kind of fun, yes.

Jen:

Exactly, exactly. So yeah, we were preparing for the mission trip and me just being my silly irresponsible self, I did not know where my passport was actually. But I was like you know what Jen, it’ll show up somewhere in the house. Don’t worry about it. So I foolishly waited until the day before the mission trip, it was really that late. It’s just so embarrassing to share my foolishness and irresponsibility, so I checked the day before and my heart dropped when I opened my passport, and it was because the passport had actually expired.

Yeah, and so very obviously that meant that I could not go. So I remember telling my pastors, and I was just bawling on the ground actually. I remember I was just curled up in a ball, just lying on the floor. I was weeping, and I was like, “God, how could you let this happen? I said no to senior week, and I said yes to missions for you.” And that was when God revealed just the utter sinfulness of my heart and he actually exposed that, “Jen, you thought you were doing what’s holy, but you were actually going for your own glory. You wanted to impress people, you wanted to impress your pastor. You were really going just for yourself and not for me and my glory.” And I remember just-

Mike:

That’s a really humbling moment, wow.

Jen:

Exactly. It was just like, “God, I had no idea I was this sinful. I had no idea how wretched and how twisted my heart could be.” So I remember just really crying, being so sad about, and grieved about how could I do this to God, this glorious God. How could I even try to imagine stealing some of his glory, wanting it for myself.

So the whole summer I just really questioned, I’m not Christian. Am I Christian? How could God love someone so sinful and so just twisted like me? So yeah, I went to college thinking I wasn’t Christian, or I could never be. But then I attended church that my brother went to, and by the grace of God, during that first semester, on one of the Friday nights we had praise and prayer night. We listened to a sermon, and by God’s grace, my brother was there, someone I’m comfortable with, and I told him how I felt so sinful before God. How could I break his heart like this.

Yeah. And then I remember my brother just saying, “This is the gospel, the fact that you’re so sinful, and Jesus Christ came to die for your sins Jen.” And so I think that night I came to really understand in a profound new way that Christ, he personally died for my sins, and he truly forgives me, and redeems me, and calls me his own.

So yeah, that was the process of how I really came to believe that Jesus is my Lord and Savior, he really forgives me. And yeah, ever since then, I remember that first, the months following, it was just bliss with God. It was a honeymoon. It was just wonderful, so that’s how I came to know the Lord.

Mike:

It’s such a great illustration of that famous phrase of Jack Miller’s that you’re desperately wicked than you even dared to imagine. Cheer up, you’re worse than you think, but you are so deeply loved beyond imagination in Jesus Christ. And it seems like at that moment, those two realities just boom, collided in your life. You were aware of the heaviness of your sin, and seeing, you had to use that Puritan phrase, the sinfulness of sin, but there you, Jesus met you with his grace and mercy.

Jen:

Right, amen. I love that too. I think about that a lot too, just it’s amazing how God knows the deepest parts of me, even the sinfulness I don’t see, and that he loves me still. It’s just such a profound mystery, and beauty, and such a wonderful truth. So yeah, thank you for sharing that quote and reminding me of it.

Mike:

Well, and that is so foundational in terms of our, to know our security is in Jesus. And so can you talk a bit how, I mean you talked about those initial months just in terms of the joy and peace. What’s it been like since in terms of that sense of living as a secure daughter in Jesus? What’s that been like?

Jen:

Right, so I will confess that I am, this is an area that I largely wrestle with, Mike. This is something that I really talk about with God on a daily basis in terms of, “God, I really need you to remind me that I am your beloved, I am your saint.” Because just the thought patterns I have, the tendencies I go towards, is more towards shame and disappointment and discouragement towards myself. I mean you could even go so far as sometimes being a self-pity like, “Oh, how could I be this way?” So I already want to confess just that this is something God I think will continue to teach me just on a daily basis.

But if I could share just a few strands of that in my own life is, in those periods of my life where I just truly strongly felt just how loved I was, and cherished I was, of a daughter of our great king, that’s why in my self-consciousness, my worries, my anxieties about what people think about me, will they judge me, will they approve of me, all those things started to melt away, it was really because in those moments I had fallen so deeply in love with God, and just being so certain that my relationship with God could never change. No matter what I did, no matter how many times I sinned against him or others, the fact that he truly loves me just really changed me, even to people like my appearance and how I went about life, so that’s kind of a generic strand I found in my life. There was a parallel, when people noticed there’s something different about you, or just you feel more secure, or there’s a radiance in a sense. That’s when I feel like the commune has been really deep with God, but I actually do wrestle a lot with being secure in this identity.

So I will say that one way that I’m very thankful for, just being a saint of God, is that it’s actually given me a great sense of purpose in my life. So for me that’s the day to day. I am so firm in that God has a purpose for each and every one of us. So this really helps in my day to day basis in terms of how I view work. Even if it’s just sending an email, or setting up something administratively, just knowing that all these things are really to build God’s kingdom. Even if I can’t see all the intricacies, trusting that because God is so for his glory and for his kingdom, I can trust even the smallest things I do have purpose and meaning. So there’s that.

There’s also, in suffering, this has always gotten me through, which is the belief that my suffering, none of it goes to waste. Not a single tear I’ve shed has gone to waste because I know that my suffering is all part of this grand story that’s bigger than myself, bigger than my own small story. It’s part of this grand scheme of God’s redemption, and so in that way I do feel like how I see being a saint affect me day to day is just having this sure steadfast purpose in life. Not because I made it for myself, but because God has secured it. So that’s a bit about how I’ve been seeing the implications of being a saint.

Mike:

That’s really, really helpful to hear. I mean I really like what you’re saying about the sense of security in Christ, or identity in Christ being tied to purpose and mission, that being his child gives us this immense purpose as his ambassador, as his hands and feet. Jesus walking, carrying out his purposes through us. So I really appreciate you saying that. It’s not something that we just kind of sit and contemplate and glow in a corner, but there’s this sense of energy that flows out of that into our lives.

Jen:

Right, yeah that’s.

Mike:

Yeah, no, I was just thinking how have you, and we’ll touch on the suffering piece in just a minute because you also mentioned that, and I think that’s really, I think that’s right. We are saints who suffer, and so absolutely being in Christ is tied to the experience of suffering. So we’ll go there in just a second, but how have you, because I think what you described in terms of this battle of living in the security of being a daughter, or in my case a son of God, is really challenging. So how do you cultivate that kind of day by day? What are some ways in which you found this helps to bring you back to those foundational realities of who you are in Christ?

Jen:

Right, wow that’s an excellent question. I feel like I’m always asking God, “Help me, I don’t know what I’m doing.” But if I’ve gleaned anything from just what God has been doing, I think these days what I have been focusing on is I really have to honestly challenge and combat in a way my very natural thoughts, the ones that automatically come to me. The thoughts that say, “You’re not enough. You’re not loved. You’re always failing.” I tend to have these kinds of thoughts just in the back of my mind.

And so I think for me these days it’s really been trying to combat that with why are you believing that. It’s challenging those thoughts, it’s asking God. I mean to be honest, it’s really asking, “God help me.” I really have to ask him that every day, just the past few weeks, “God help me. I don’t understand right now in this period deeply, or I’m not letting you really love me,” in the sense of I create some kind of barrier or I don’t want to believe it, or I keep him at a distance. There’s some kind of dynamic going on, an even I’m not in control of that sometimes. I can contribute to it, but sometimes I just feel so helpless against it in a way. But I think that’s when God is really calling me to depend on him.

It’s crazy, it’s even something like why wouldn’t you want to be secure and loved in Christ. It’s like oh, of course I want to, but then even then it’s like I need to ask God for his help and I need to depend on him. So I think these days it just has been really just crying out to God, “I need your help God.” This is something I sometimes don’t know how to get out of myself. Yeah, that’s really what it’s been for me is just crying out.

Yeah, if I could also think of something practical. There are certain songs that I will repeat actually, just songs of reminders of my identity in God, his steadfast love. Yeah, just songs about his steadfast love and that he loves me, cares for his children. Anything that’s been kind of moving in my heart to remind me of my identity in God has been really helpful too, I have to say, with just the worship. It’s so helpful.

Mike:

That’s great. Yeah, I mean I really appreciate your posture of dependence and helplessness. It’s not, you’re just highlighting, this is not a once and done thing in terms of this resting in Christ. We cry out for sort of… What came to mind when you were talking there was blind Bartimaeus, “Jesus, son of David, have mercy on me.” We need his help even to see clearly. And you’re very aware of your tendencies to move into those false identities, or those places where you’re not living securely. And then also highlighting just how corporate worship, as well as singing and particular songs as well as scripture help us stay grounded in him. Yeah, that’s great.

I mean a little bit ago you mentioned, you touched on suffering and how the Lord, how being secure in him is helpful in the midst of suffering. Could you talk a bit more about that, and just how has the Lord met you? How have other people also met you in your suffering? I would love to hear some examples also of how people ministered well to you.

Jen:

So I am so fortunate in this way, and this is interesting tied in with the previous question of how if you’re wrestling with believing, you’re a saint and you’re a chosen and loved child of God, how do you combat that, and how do you wrestle with that. And interestingly, this is tied in with this part of the question because for me it’s actually also the instances where I’ve received help and comfort from people tangibly, that I can really say that God loves me, and I feel secure in that.

So yeah, so even, side note, I do have a gratitude journal

Mike:

Hey, that’s awesome, that’s wonderful.

Jen:

And so in moments of suffering, I have written down literally every instance where I felt God’s love, his comfort and his truth to me through people. So just the encouragement there that as David says in the Psalms, there’s something so sweet about looking back at God’s faithfulness. And so thinking about this question is just so sweet, because it’s in the moments of suffering where I actually grew in my security in God.

And so I think one very specific example of how being a saint has helped me face suffering, is with the example of last year just going through a very difficult situation with a relationship where I was with my boyfriend, and then we broke up for certain reasons. I had prayed about it and felt like the Lord was leading me to break up with him. And I just had this immense fear right after, even during the process, just what if he dates my friend, what if, what if.

So I had asked these questions, and my friend said that it’s actually, if he does end up being with your friend or someone else, that it’s actually because it’s for God’s kingdom, and so it’s also for your good. And actually, if I’m being honest, I did not, I could not deep down love hearing that. It was hard. It was hard, but in hindsight that actually now is the vision, the quote, the sentence I keep coming back to is whatever happens in my life, it is for his kingdom, and for my good. I just repeat those two parts, for his kingdom, his glory, and for my good. And it’s not separated, it’s intertwined.

And so now I find so much encouragement because I know whoever he has been with, now that he is dating and engaged, I know that that is for their good, and for God’s kingdom. Perhaps they’ll be together, they are better than what me and my ex could have been, and it’s for God’s kingdom. And then there’s hope for me in the sense of well now I know that, I just hope and pray whoever I end up with, if I do, will be for God’s kingdom. Perhaps we’re a better pair together, to bless others, and it’s also for my good. And so now that’s just been a resounding phrase I keep going back to. So that’s one way that being a saint in suffering has really helped, again the security and God’s purposes and his good plans for us. It’s so out of love. It’s not just for his kingdom, so it’s not God not considering me, but it’s also for my good. So it’s something that I would love actually, something I’d appreciate in the end.

If I understood everything he did, I would be like, “Yes God, thank you for this, for how you worked in my life.” So that’s one thing I can think of. And you can feel free to stop me.

Mike:

Yeah, just one quick comment there. I appreciate where you said in terms of when you heard that from your other friend is sort of like, “I don’t know if I like that.” You’re highlighting how sometimes it just takes a while for God’s truth to kind of penetrate and seep into our hearts, particularly in times of sorrow, and grief, and lament. So something that’s good, and right, and true, that God’s purposes are good, and that he’s for us and not against us, sometimes those words can feel not helpful until I think prayerfully and over time, those realities are helpful. But it wasn’t an automatic switch, it doesn’t sound like, right? It sounds like it took some time.

Jen:

Right, it took a lot of time. And I kind of feel like it’s also certain things in life just age better with time, and it gets richer with time too. You think about a tea bag and you put it in, and some teas it just tastes better if you let it seep in. And so it kind of reminds me of that as well. Now it gives me hope. Back then it was so discouraging, it hurt my pride. But now it’s something that gives me so much relief and hope, just a total 180.

So another piece that has helped me in my suffering just as a saint has actually been this concept of knowing the author, just the concept of God being my author. And because he is my father, that he will be the most detailed, most caring author I know. That has given me immense comfort in my life. And so if I can explain that as well, I guess bringing back to a certain time period of my life.

Mike:

Sure.

Jen:

Great, and so there was a period of my life where there were a lot of transitions. There was a traumatic experience that I also went through. There was just some injustice in certain areas of my life, where politics were involved. It was just a lot of things happening at once where I literally felt like every day I could not go through another day. Not in a sense suicidal, I just don’t want to live another day, but more in the sense of sometimes when suffering is so great and it compounds, it’s just so excruciating and I feel like I can’t get through another day. I’ll just feel so weak and overwhelmed. And so in that season of my life where I just felt like suffering had turned my life upside down and I felt so helpless in the situation, what helped me in that situation and after was the idea that literally every single thing that happened, God wrote it in his book for me so I could know that every word, every period, every comma, every but, then, however, if, all those things God had masterfully orchestrated.

And so even though it was excruciatingly hard, there is no way I can minimize the pain. I think it was just knowing that I could trust God because he really does care for me. And although I don’t understand this chapter of my life, I know someone who does, and that’s my father.

And it also comforted me knowing that at the end of my book, it’s all heading towards redemption, it’s all heading towards finally being at home with God, face to face. There’s a happy ending to everything, and so that just gave me so much hope because that meant day to day I’m actually getting closer to that reality of redemption. And whether I see that redemption of my suffering now on earth, or if I have to wait until heaven for God to reveal all of that, I could just be rest assured that I can trust in his plans for me.

So that was really helpful in the sense that even in my story because God put Jesus into it, whether it’s explicit in the words of the chapter, or if you have to read between the lines, and Jesus in there without being explicitly in there, that brought so much hope because that meant every single word, punctuation, chapter, plot line, everything has been actually touched by Christ. And so it’s not suffering to no end, it’s not suffering that’s meaningless, it’s actually suffering that God has touched and redeemed. So just knowing that gave me so much assurance and peace. But again, not to negate that it’s difficult. It’s just again, that greater security.

Mike:

Yeah, and just putting it into that broader context of what God is doing over time. I really appreciate your metaphors, the author and the book. Yeah, I mean that’s our experience in reading good literature too, right? Good literature isn’t this monochromatic everybody’s happy all the time, or that it’s only tragedy all the time. But there’s something that’s driving this plot forward, and you’re just highlighting the author of our stories is this benevolent father who is writing it for our good. And we know that because Jesus walked in our shoes before us, to ensure that that’s the case. So I really love that metaphor. That’s a really helpful way of… And even what you said about maybe we see the Lord very explicitly in a given day in terms of how he’s meeting us in suffering, and other times have to look between the lines. I really appreciate that. Thank you, that’s really helpful.

Jen:

Yeah, praise God. That’s through experience. You’re like, “Where is God?” And then you look back and it’s like, “Oh, there he was.” You read between the lines and you could see him, so definitely all praise and glory to God. He’s such a masterful author that he even gave us that metaphor, that we could understand that.

And if it’s okay to take it a step further too, I actually think about what helps me with that metaphor is actually remembering that wow, God didn’t just write my book, but actually when I turn to other pages, my book is actually in the middle of a greater book. And it’s not just my story, but God is working through every single person’s life and their stories. And Jesus is literally written in every page of them, and he changed what could have been such a dark depressing book, to something that is actually so hopeful. And so that always gives me peace knowing that it’s not about me, it’s not just my story, but it’s a story embedded in a larger, beautiful redemptive story that God created. And there’s so much sanity actually that comes from that. It’s not about me, it’s about God as well. It’s about God.

Mike:

Yeah, and it’s so helpful for you to know to that it’s not simply our individual or individualistic experiences, but they are embedded with other people, but they are embedded ultimately in this redemptive tapestry that God is weaving, that has this certain end point when we read Revelation 21 and 22, so that’s really encouraging.

Jen:

And that’s actually funny that you brought up the tapestry aspect because Mike, that has actually, that is the next thing I wanted to share.

Mike:

Oh, well great. Go for it.

Jen:

Yeah, very neat. So there’s actually a tapestry poem that my pastor had shared during a sermon, and it’s something he read to us when, again, I went through some relational turmoil, just feeling really sad about the breakup, and then how things happened after. It was just such a hard period where I… Yeah, I felt really hurt and sad about it, but if I could read the poem, if that’s okay, that he shared?

Mike:

Sure, sure. That’d be great.

Jen:

So it’s by Corrie ten Boom and she says, “My life is but a weaving between my God and me. I cannot choose the colors he weaveth steadily. Oft times he weaveth sorrow and I in foolish pride, forget that he sees the upper side and I the under side. Not until the loom is silent and the shuttles cease to fly, will God unroll the canvas and reveal the reasons why. The dark threads are as needful in the weaver’s skillful hand as the threads of gold and silver in the pattern he has planned. He knows, he loves, he cares, nothing this truth condemn. He gives the very best to those who leave the choice to him.”

So yeah, this poem is just immensely meaningful, especially because I’m a visual person, I love these analogies. Just again remembering that our life is a tapestry and there is a great personal intimate tapestry maker and artist behind all of that, so I can trust that my life is in his hands. And right now I might not be able to understand every single stand and thread of my life, but one day I will see the upper side and it’ll be an absolutely beautiful tapestry that tells of God’s glory, his goodness. And yeah, again, everything we’ve gone through will not be for nothing, but it’ll have so much meaning, love, glory, purpose behind it. So that’s been personally really a blessing for me.

Mike:

That’s a wonderful poem and coming from Corrie ten Boom, she knew suffering. And so yeah, I think so many of our days can feel like the under side. We see all these threads and jumble of knots and it’s like what’s going on here. And so having that trust, that actually there is a weaving taking place and it will be beautiful, even if we’re having trouble seeing it in the moment.

Jen:

Exactly.

Mike:

Staying on this theme of suffering, are there ways in which, and you alluded a little bit to this earlier in terms of people coming alongside you that ministered to you well. Can you give maybe an example of that? This is really so helpful in the way this person came to me in the midst of my suffering. That’s one thing, and then how about when that didn’t happen well? When you felt like someone didn’t understand, or they didn’t meet me well in my suffering. I’d love to hear maybe an example from each of those.

Jen:

Right, yeah I’d love to share. So I mean this is just such a privilege to even have been asked this question, because it just makes me reflect and think about how God has been so, so good and faithful through people. And so one example I can give, well if it’s okay if I can give two examples.

Mike:

Yes, absolutely.

Jen:

Yeah, I’m tempted to just give a shout out to everyone like, “Oh yeah, this person and that person,” but I’m trying to refrain, Mike. So one example I can think of is last year when I went through the breakup, it was really difficult because it was the last thing I wanted to do. But I had come to a point in my relationship where I asked God, “Can you show me if I should be with this person for not? And if not, can you make it very obvious to me, show me a sign.” And God was very quick to answer, and so I broke up not because I wanted to. If I followed my desires, I would have stayed, I would have wanted to. But out of obedience from what I felt God had shown me, I broke up. And so it was just an extremely difficult situation. And my mentor, she bought a round trip ticket for me to visit her in Atlanta.

Mike:

Oh wow.

Jen:

Yeah, the sacrifice of money and time just for me reflected, honestly God sacrificed for me with his son. He showed me that he loved me because he sent his son for me, to die for me and to save me. And so in that way, my mentor, she sacrificed her money, her time, to have me come all the way down to Atlanta, to host me in her house. She showed such great hospitality. She asked me what my favorite snacks were, she would prepare it. She was always asking what I wanted to eat. And you know how food really gets to you.

Mike:

Absolutely.

Jen:

Exactly. It’s comforting and it tastes good.

Mike:

Yes, yes.

Jen:

And it was definitely helpful because I had lost my appetite greatly. I lost a lot of weight, I lost my appetite. And here’s this sister encouraging me to eat, so very helpful. Yeah, physically, spiritually, emotionally, and she would take me out to just talk, and she would really walk me through what happened. And she would very kindly and lovingly help me to see what was happening. She would help me see the patterns that I held.

Jen:

So for example, she said, “I see this pattern where you’re really blaming yourself for things,” but sometimes or oftentimes we shouldn’t blame ourselves for other people’s actions. And she helped me see that, and I didn’t notice I had been doing that. So even just her pointing out my patterns, perhaps thinking patterns that were not right, true, or helpful, she helped point that out which was really, really eye opening for me, even though in the beginning it was really hard for me to understand. And so yeah, just the fact that she had been so hospitable and really taking me under her wings, for me showed how God cares for me intimately. And that’s one example.

Mike:

That’s great, yeah. Just this full orbed care that she gave to you. Tangible, physical, right, here’s some food and I’m going to eat with you. And then just coming alongside of you and encouraging you where you needed to be encouraged. That’s wonderful.

Jen:

Right, and that’s one of the things I often think about when I am tempted to ask, “God, why the suffering or that suffering,” or, “Do you love me?” And he’ll just remind me with that example actually again and again, “I sent this person to care for you and love for you. You have to know I love you, Jen.” And then I believe again, very quickly like that.

Mike:

Well, just that remembering is a really wonderful thing, a discipline for us. You mentioned earlier your gratitude journal, and just there’s a way in which bringing to mind what God has done, and through other people as well, brings us back to sanity as you said earlier.

Jen:

Definitely, I would highly recommend it to everyone, because when you do read back on your journal, you will just be floored by how God has met you in your toughest times of your life, and it does give you strength to continue. And so if it’s okay, I’ll also share another one.

Mike:

Sure, go for it.

Jen:

This is also something that I have written down in my gratitude journal, something I’ve actually printed and thought about. And so again, with what happened last year, I actually got to share during a CCEF prayer meeting, and I’m just so thankful for each and every one of you that’s part of CCEF that is willing to pray for me and talk about it. So I actually, the very first time I mentioned what had happened to me… I don’t know if you, I believe you were there.

Mike:

I think I was there, yes.

Jen:

I was crying, I was crying a lot and it was a very vulnerable moment for me, and I also apologized as I was sharing. I was like, “I’m sorry guys, I’m sorry I’m crying.” I said, “This is a lot.”

Mike:

And we’re like go for it. We see this all the time. So this is normal for grief and sorrow, yeah.

Jen:

Exactly, which is so comforting. Even now, some stuff for me, Mike, as we’re talking, this is just so comforting. Like Mike understands, he’s so empathetic. It’s so easy to talk to you right now too, as I’m sharing, so thank you as well.

So after I shared at the prayer meeting, someone had actually emailed me right after, immediately after. And they thanked me first of all for sharing my heart with everyone this morning, and they said that it was a real blessing to him and to all of us. And he said that as I shared, he was filled with emotion and compassion for me. He listed them, he said sorrow, your heart is broken and it hurts badly. He wrote about anger, he wrote about confusion, what does Satan want you to question in yourself, or accuse you of. Because I felt so, if I can be quite honest, I felt unworthy, I felt like trash, I felt unlovable, I was confused. And he also wrote he felt relief. He was thankful that God revealed, he was thankful that God answered my prayer request and showed me what I should do with my relationship.

And then he said, “I’m sure there’s more. Please don’t ever apologize for such a personal and tender prayer request. That was beautiful and gracious to share with us.” And he said, “I’m glad that the Lord’s spared you of the sorrow then,” if we were to continue in comparison to now. So basically saying it’s really hard now, but if you continued it probably would have been harder. And so at the end, all he did was apologize that I’m in the midst of it and he said, “What a grief, what a loss.”

And if could just explain a bit about how the dynamics of why that was helpful.

Mike:

Mm-hmm (affirmative), please.

Jen:

Yeah, I was thinking first of all as I was going through it I was filled with such confusion and conflict of emotions. And the fact that someone had written it all down and helped making something chaotic more simple and understandable, that was really helpful for me because for me it was just everything’s flying around in my mind, and my heart. I was disheveled, I felt confused and lost. But for someone to come alongside you and just help organize what you’re feeling, and make it concise and simple, there’s a sense of relief like oh, this is what I’m going through. There’s words to what I’m going through.

And then I think second, because this person had felt these emotions on my behalf, I was just so humbled like why would someone feel these things for me. They’re not even going through it themselves. Which reflects God of course, and how he deeply feels with us and walks with us in our suffering.

And then there’s also the aspect of, third, there was the aspect of bringing I would say dignity and honor to the way I was suffering, because this person thanked me, and said it was beautiful and gracious to share. And as I was sharing, I was filled with a lot of shame for how I was suffering, and what actually happened. I was embarrassed that I cried so much. I’m a crier and I was ashamed, but he brought dignity to it. And I think also just the fact that they ended on, “I’m grieving with you,” that was helpful as well, just I’m not in it alone.

Mike:

Wow, that’s such a wonderful example, and again, thank you for your vulnerability in sharing that now. But just yeah, that framing of your experience you found so helpful. That person brought clarity, they brought a sense of unity with you, and identifying with your sufferings in a way that made you feel like okay, I’m not alone in this, and I’m upheld in the midst of my sorrow.

Jen:

Right, exactly. And I think… Oh yeah.

Mike:

Go ahead, mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jen:

And I think in particular why I found this example interesting is the fact that it wasn’t an explicit Bible verse was shared, or an explicit truth about God, it was God’s love becoming tangible. It was the… I forget what I was trying to say. God’s love being… I’m wondering if you could help me out.

Mike:

Incarnated or lived out.

Jen:

Yes, thank you. Incarnated, that’s what it was. Thank you, Mike.

Mike:

Yeah.

Jen:

Yeah, it was the aspect of God loving incarnated that brought a lot of healing and hope in my life. And so that was greatly encouraging to me because sometimes I’m like I don’t know what to say. But sometimes it’s really just walking alongside that person and feeling for them and caring for them.

Mike:

Yeah, which is validating their place of suffering, taking away even the shame of that vulnerability with someone right there with you, yeah. Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that. I mean you highlighted how in this case, they weren’t bringing a particular passage to you, but there are times obviously in the midst our suffering where either someone speaks to us words of scripture, or we read something in scripture. Has there been anything in the suffering that you’ve spoken about where the Lord has brought something from the Bible to bear on your life? And so what would that be?

Jen:

Yeah, so one of those scripture passages is from the story of Joseph in Genesis, so it’s Genesis 37 through 50, just following the life of Joseph. And just to briefly recap, Joseph is one of Jacob’s sons, and one of 12 sons, and Jacob favors Joseph over the other brothers. And they sell him into slavery, into Egypt, but just through God’s sovereignty and how he again is the masterful weaver and the wonderful author, while Joseph is in Egypt he rises in power and favor. He also goes through some difficulties such as false accusations, but at the end of all of that, he actually, Pharaoh appoints him to be the Prime minister of Egypt. And so we see there that after all of that, his brothers, they go to Egypt because there’s a famine and they’re seeking food. And that’s actually when they encounter Joseph, they betrayed Joseph, but they actually don’t know that it’s Joseph, but of course Joseph is aware.

And at the end of all of that, eventually Joseph reveals himself to them and he says to them, “As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good to bring it about that many people should be kept alive as they are today.” And so Joseph actually ends up saving his brothers, he provides food for them, and he ends up saving really Israel, which is eventually where Jesus would come from, so that is amazing masterful weaving right there. It’s a great tapestry.

Mike:

Yes, it is.

Jen:

And so that story and that verse has meant the world to me. It really has because in certain periods of my life where suffering just was immense and compounded, even specifically when there are moments where I felt like men did something evil against me. As Joseph says, “You meant evil against me,” when I really felt that, when trust is broken in a relationship and it just becomes difficult to process, or when you go through something traumatic, which I had gone through, or with even other suffering I experienced in that period, all of that I really could understand how men meant something evil against me, but I could say that God meant it for good.

And just to also give a specific example is all that suffering that actually happened when I was going through a lot of transitions, and one of the transitions was leaving my secular grad school and coming over to Westminster actually. And there was a lot that happened in that period and all experience of my life, including some trauma and other sufferings. And at the end of it, God actually brought me from a place of suffering to a place of redemption, and actually an even better place than before.

So an example is I went from my secular school and came over here to Westminster and CCEF just because one professor I had at CCEF kind of took me under her wings and invited me to come to CCEF. And so right there I could see with my very own eyes, the very suffering that led me to leave, and leave a lot of different places, that just led to a lot of transitions, that actually led me to a greater place which is studying biblical counseling, to being at CCEF where my experiences here have been so redemptive, and actually so healing. And so I could confidently say what man meant, what he meant evil against me, God meant for good. So that has been really hope giving to me over and over again.

Mike:

I mean that’s such a wonderful narrative that God maps into your life, into all of our lives, but it just really touches closely on that tapestry metaphor. I’m sure right when Joseph’s in the dungeon it’s like, “Whoa, what is this story that God is weaving?” We don’t see. We had the privilege of seeing the end point in that story and that’s part of what ultimately gives us hope. Obviously that moves towards Jesus himself, our ultimate hope, so yeah.

Jen:

Right, exactly. And to also add to that, I also realize this is also one of those things where sometimes when you read scripture again and again, the same passage, there is a richness that grows with it. Because even in the past year when I’ve been reading it, the word wept and weeping and weep really popped out. Because actually if you go through the story of Joseph, he cries a lot. He weeps a lot.

Mike:

Yes.

Jen:

And that was really comforting because I also am a crier and I weep a lot, but to know that God wanted to include that in the Bible, that Joseph wept so many times, just gave dignity and normalized the process of grieving, the process of understanding suffering and healing from it. So that was also something that really comforted me as I’m not alone in how I process things and how I weep.

Mike:

And you see that in Jesus’ life as well. At Lazarus’ tomb, when he enters into that terrible moment and he weeps with those who are weeping, even knowing what he’s going to do in terms of raising Lazarus from the dead. So no, I appreciate you sharing that.

Can you talk about now, what is the Lord at work now? What is some of the cutting edge work that he’s doing? And by that I simply mean just day to day. How is he growing you up more into him? How’s he helping you walk in obedience? We talked about how in a sense being a saint is so critical in the midst of our sufferings, how does it help you walk in obedience? And yeah, so that whole process of growing in Christ and fighting sin, what does that look like?

Jen:

That is a great question. So something I see God is doing in my life is really helping me depend on him more, and to invite him into actually every conversation. I think of him as a father and he calls me his daughter. So I think it’s so easy for me to talk with friends, to share with friends, and I’m like why don’t I automatically do that with God sometimes? And so this is tied in with past suffering as well, but it’s something I really had to learn from first hand experience, because in my past relationship I didn’t go into it asking for God’s opinion. I didn’t go into it really depending on him, or praying through it.

And so once I did pray about it for the clarity in the relationship, and God answered and I obeyed, after that I was just stunned with this realization and desire to next time in my relationship, or just overall day to day living, I want to invite God into everything, every decision, even the smallest things. I desire to depend on him and talk about it with him. And so that’s something that I have been trying to do on a day to day basis in my daily thoughts, just praying to God, talking to God, just asking him for his wisdom and to show me the way and I’ll obey, even when it’s hard. Help me to do that.

And so yeah, I really learned not to necessarily follow my own will, my own desires, but to ask God to do that for me. I was so afraid of God’s control, but now it’s like the only place for sanity is for God to be in control. And once you trust that and believe it, you find relief. You don’t have to worry as much anymore. You can just trust that your life is in his hands. And so yeah, I think this is related to a growing trust in God.

Again, since I’ve experienced some traumatic things in my life, trust is just not the easiest thing for me. So I would say these days just every day it is having to pray to God to help me trust him today. Again, it’s that theme of crying out to God, “I need your help.” And so that’s something I feel like God is doing in my life now. It’s the cutting edge of growth for me, is that continual growth and trust because I just tend to have my guard up after things that happened in my life. I’m more hypervigilant, all these things. I feel like because of that, perhaps for me the process of trust will be a little bit harder, a little slower perhaps.

But yeah, one of my friends helped me understand that and actually told me, “I think your suffering is beautiful because once you come out the other side, you’ll be able to express your hard earned, heart wrenching, slowly forged trust in God, and his healing power to others.” So Mike, right now it’s not something 180 for me where I see this crazy change and growth. I mean I do see that growing trust in him, but for right now, I think for me it’s that really daily faithfulness to dependency on God, and praying to God for his wisdom and his will be done.

Mike:

Yeah, I appreciate that Jen, and another, maybe putting it in the context of the metaphor you were using in terms of God weaving a tapestry, or being the author of our stories, I think so much of our day to day is will I yield, will I yield the pen to the author, or will I try to scribble my own lines. Like no, this is a better scene. Let me do it my way as opposed to help me to depend on you to live out what you’re writing. Yeah, what I hear you saying, that day to day dependence.

Jen:

Right, that’s exactly it. Even in going into conversations with people or thinking about how I want to live today, I just pray in the morning how should I be as a friend, who should I reach out to, or what would be pleasing to you God as me being a daughter to my family, as me being a sister to my family. It’s just there are so many ways you can tangibly ask God for his wisdom and his will. So it’s been a nice slow journey, but very peace giving actually I’ll say. I experience more peace as the days go on.

Mike:

Yeah, praise God.

Let me ask one last question Jen. You talked a lot about how people have ministered really well to you in the midst of your suffering, particularly that example you gave of the email of a colleague. It was so helpful. How has being the recipient of that kind of love shaped your own wanting to move out in your relationships with that same kind of love? So how has it I guess impacted you as you move towards those who are suffering, or maybe mired in sin?

Jen:

Yeah, so that email, and also just all the experiences of having been loved and cared for by so many during suffering, that’s definitely changed my life I think first in recognizing where that came from, which it all came from God our father, our king. He’s not this God who’s far away, but he’s so intimate, so committed to all the details of our lives, and he’s committed to us as people. And so because I really felt just how strongly God is committed to me through all these people, it really helps me to actually give him glory and praise and thanksgiving, and it’s in that moment when I’m meeting with God just with overflowing gratitude. I think that’s where transformation can happen, that’s where your lens of, I want to go out. Because I’ve received so much from God himself, I want to go out and share that love with others.

And so that’s in very practical ways such as this colleague that emailed me just showed me that reaching out to someone can do wonders. Sometimes people can feel alone in their suffering, but just taking the step of being proactive, asking God, “Give me your eyes to see those who are suffering around me.” And then when someone does share, to follow up, or to pray for them on your own and tell them that you’ve been thinking about them. There’s that proactivity in how we care for others that I’ve received, and I’m trying to do as well.

Mike:

Yeah, and again, just highlighting that just sometimes it’s just a very simple act that makes a huge difference to us in the midst of our suffering, when someone reaches out to us, or if we do to others. So yeah, I think I’m hearing in a sense pay attention to those nudges from the spirit in terms of reaching out.

Jen:

Right, exactly.

Mike:

Jen, I am really thankful for the time that we’ve been able to talk together, and grateful you’d spend this time speaking honestly, and so clearly pointing to Jesus in the midst of it.