Walking with the Depressed

Transcript:

You are listening to a podcast of the Christian Counseling and Educational Foundation. CCEF is committed to restoring Christ to counseling and counseling to the church. You can find our podcasts, books, articles, videos, and many more resources for Christ-centered Pastoral Care at our website, ccef.org.

Alasdair Groves:

Hello, welcome to CCEF on the go. I am Alasdair Groves, your host, a faculty member here at CCEF. Today, I’m talking with Julie Lowe, again. Julie, I’m so glad that you are still willing to do podcasts with me after I’ve grilled you with us a bunch of times. So thanks for showing up.

Julie Lowe:

Oh, it’s fun for me. Glad to do it.

Alasdair Groves:

You’re a good person, Julie. You’re a good person. Julie, I wanted to talk today a bit about walking alongside folks who struggle with depression. Let me set that context just a little bit more narrowly actually, because obviously there’s a lot we could say about depression and what do you do and how do you help? I’m thinking primarily here, not so much of your work and mind in a counseling room where the focus of an hour long conversation is, how are the depths of your soul? How are you doing? What can we do? Let’s take proactive steps. I’m thinking more about just the normal person in a pew in a church saying, “I’ve got a friend,” or “I’ve got a sister,” or “it’s my dad or my child who’s struggling with depression,” and I want to love them well. I want to help care for them, but I don’t necessarily have an invitation to a weekly hour long conversation that’s intentionally focused and they’re actually saying, “I’m here to talk about my depression.”

Maybe there’s some of that in the relationship, maybe there’s not. There’s going to be a whole spectrum of what it means to walk alongside someone. One piece of that spectrum is how much are you being invited into that kind of conversation, which is different than counseling in a more formal setting like you and I do. So I’m thinking especially outside the counseling room, what does it look like to walk well with people who are depressed? I think that I probably break my thoughts down to maybe two broad categories, one of which is how would you even know someone was depressed? What are the ways that you might pick up on that? And then secondly, unsurprisingly, what do you do? How can you help as a person walking alongside? So start me out just when you think about depression, what are you looking for? What would you encourage people to be listening for, looking at, what are we observing?

Julie Lowe:

Yeah. The most obvious is when they just come out and tell you that they’re depressed.

Alasdair Groves:

Yeah, that’s helpful.

Julie Lowe:

That always does help, doesn’t it? But, as we know, that’s not always the case. Most of the time we notice because we see people withdraw. Either somebody’s coming in and saying, “I am really struggling with this.” Or what’s probably more common as well is when people start withdrawing from activities, withdrawing from being in the Bible study or the small group or from going to events that you used to see them at. And it’s that going unnoticed, that can be a hard thing, a bad thing, a big red flag as well.

And so, I think having eyes to see that people are retreating and withdrawing from what we used to see them in is a helpful thing. And being willing to reach out and say, “Hey, I just noticed…” And I think out of fear that we are making something bigger than it is, we stay silent or quiet about it. But noticing can’t hurt anybody. To be able to say, “Hey, I noticed you haven’t been at the small group lately.” Or, “I noticed you haven’t been in Sunday school or at church.” Then we’re inviting them to tell us what’s going on, and we’re not afraid of asking questions because they’re questions that just say, “I care. I miss seeing you. I notice you’re gone.”

Alasdair Groves:

Yeah. So Julie, I’m a spreadsheet person. So you would tell me to keep a spreadsheet, walk up with my phone out and be like, “Now, you weren’t here on the 30th or the 16th.” Is that what you’re-

Julie Lowe:

That’s right. Everybody should take attendance of everybody missing. Well, and there’s the hard thing too, that you don’t want people to feel like you’re on top of them if they miss once. But we all know when somebody’s off, at least that we have known well. And then there’s the people that tend to be on the quieter side anyway. I think sometimes we have to step outside of our own comfort zone. I tend to be a bit of an introvert by nature. So my fear of annoying somebody or pressing in where I’m not wanted can prevent me from doing it. Instead of saying, you know what? It doesn’t hurt to say, “Hey, I miss seeing you.” Then it opens the door to ask more questions if that person is willing.

So I’m speaking especially to myself to say, pressing in, being willing to do something that feels a little uncomfortable. Some people thrive on doing that. They love on pressing in. I’m not one of them. So it means I’ve got to be intentional about when I notice being willing to take a step in that direction. And that’s love. Love moves towards people.

Alasdair Groves:

Yeah. Now even hearing you say that, just the pursuing love of Christ. That’s so foundational to any kind of ministry, formal, informal, whatever the case might be. But it’s helpful too, Julie, to hear you just reflecting on the reasons we hold back are so often about our own comfort. We often phrase it as like, “Oh, I wouldn’t want to intrude,” or, “Oh, I wouldn’t want to bother them,” Or “They might feel judged,” or whatever. And of course those things are possible. They might feel some of those things. But here’s where, especially as a counselor, how many times have you heard someone say, “I was in the worst season of my life and I wasn’t ever showing up at my small group, and no one said a thing. No one even checked in. No one ever followed up with me. It made me feel like I didn’t matter.”

I’ve been on the other side of that enough times to know, when you’re on the other side of it, you feel like, “Well, I don’t want to bother somebody.” There’s a discomfort and you’re actually, there is a level at which you’re wanting to protect the person by not calling them out for missing group. But so often that withdrawal is a sign that this is going really badly. There’s a life wide bleakness to my life, and I’m losing traction. And to have someone simply say, “Hey, how are you doing?” And really mean it and stick around for the answer can be such a powerful thing.

Julie Lowe:

Yeah. I’ll give you a semi humorous example. My husband and I, years ago, we were out to breakfast somewhere and off in a corner was an elderly woman. But she looked, from my perspective, she looked very sad. She might have even been crying, but I couldn’t tell if that was just her facial expression. And so I was sitting there talking to my husband saying, “She looks really upset. Should we go over and talk to her? Maybe she’s lonely. Maybe she wants somebody to sit with her.” I’m saying all this because I’m feeling really bad and I’m projecting need onto her that might not be there. And my husband’s saying, “For all you know, she just wants to be alone and you’re projecting your own feelings on her.” And I looked back and it became this humorous moment of, she’s probably happy to be there, and you’re thinking she’s upset to be there and projecting all these, I’ve got to come rescue her.

Though, if I were there by myself, would I have walked over and said, “Are you okay? Would you like company?” I think my own insecurity of feeling foolish or being rejected still would’ve prevented me from doing it. And I think it’s a good picture of what we do in church and in community all the time as well. Now, granted, it’s a little more awkward walking up to a complete stranger in a restaurant.

Alasdair Groves:

That is a slightly higher bar, isn’t it?

Julie Lowe:

It is, yeah. You’ve got to be pretty bold to do that. But the same fears and insecurities prevent us from moving towards people.

Alasdair Groves:

And if I’m hearing you, Julie, I think what you’re saying both in that story and more broadly is, when in doubt, check in, go move toward… What’s the worst that can happen about checking in is somebody feels a little awkward for a moment, but they have the chance to say, “Yeah, I’m not doing well, and I appreciate you coming toward me.”

Julie Lowe:

Yeah. So let me repeat the scenario. If I had just walked over and said, “Hey, are you okay? You look sad.” What would’ve killed me to be completely wrong? Or what if she had started sobbing right there in the moment and I had taken the time to sit down next to her and talk? Could that have been not only meaningful, but maybe even life changing? Who will ever know? Because I didn’t take that step.

Alasdair Groves:

Right. And I’m glad you put it that way, Julie, because you’re raising, I think, another huge issue, which is the busyness factor. I think a lot of the time, the reason we don’t check in, sometimes it’s because we’re actually as far along the path as you are where you’re like, “I’m actually observing that somebody is withdrawing or somebody looks sad, and I’m now wrestling in my soul to have the courage to go speak to them.” I think a lot of the time though, the reason we don’t talk to people who are withdrawing or who are pulling back in ways is we barely notice. Or if we notice, it’s sort of like, “Oh, isn’t that interesting? Well, they’re probably just busy because I’m certainly busy.” That sense of, I don’t have the time to even pull my head up and look around and saying, “Are people withdrawing? Is that even happening?” I think a lot of the time that’s as big of a factor as anything. I certainly can confess and identify that in my own life.

Julie Lowe:

Yeah. And I think piggybacking off of that, another issue is when we do notice, we are left with a question, will I take the time to intervene? And what we tend to do well in a church is we’re pretty good at the short-term crisis stuff. We’re not really good at the long haul, walking alongside somebody. I like that metaphor of walking through a desert with somebody because it doesn’t feel fun. It’s not short. It’s going to be a long hike. It’s often dry. It’s often difficult. You’re sitting in their difficult emotions. And so I think that’s another thing that sometimes prevents us that even when we see very clearly, we’re afraid of saying, “No, I really don’t want to have to walk through this desert with this person.”

Alasdair Groves:

The cost is high. The cost is high. And Jesus is clear, “Following me is going to come with a cost.” The yolk is easy and the burden is light, and you’ll have rest for your soul. But there is a cost and it would be unhelpful of us to pretend like, oh yeah, it’s just going to be easy and if you just love somebody, it will all get better quickly. There’s a right way to say, yeah, sacrifice that lays down a life, that is painful. There’s a death involved. Being poured out as a drink offering is not a pleasant experience even if it’s achieving an internal joy. That’s worth it.

So okay, sometimes people are going to say, “I’m depressed.” Sometimes they’re going to say things that even if they’re not using the word depression could be at least helpful triggers. Like, “Hey, I’m just really down,” or, “I’m discouraged,” or, “Man, it’s been really hard.” Or someone who historically has been more joyful is just speaking with a lack of energy, lack of excitement, lack of encouragement. And then sometimes it’s not going to be so much you see it in their words. It’s going to be more of an absence from things. It’s going to be a pulling out. What do we do? How do we move toward? You’ve already identified one way, which is, all right, go ask. Go say, “Hey, how are you doing?” What else can we be doing? As people trying to walk alongside those who are struggling with depression in whatever form, what are some other thoughts that we can do to move toward?

Julie Lowe:

Yeah, I think practically even just our presence is a support. So again, we want to fix, we want to take away what people are struggling with or feeling. Sometimes all we can do is just be present and remind them that they’re not alone, but we’re really willing to just listen. And there are times we have to speak in, there are times we should speak in and intervene and help. But I think we can minimize how just a presence and is a support that we are being a conduit of God’s goodness and love and tenderness by simply sitting with them or walking alongside them in the hard stuff.

And then there’s the practical of guiding them sometimes in decision making when they’re overwhelmed or inviting possibilities and resources and solutions. It might mean offering to pick them up and take them to places where they feel unmotivated to go themselves, like small group or Bible study. Is saying, “I know that if left to your own devices tonight, you would stay locked in your apartment. So I’m coming to get you.” And we’re drawing them out in ways that feel supportive and loving. And we’re looking for resources, a supportive community to help place them in so that they are nurtured, so that they have help and care. It might even be saying, “Do you want me to take you to your counseling appointment? Can I help you find a counselor? Do you want me to drive and sit in the waiting room so you’re not alone?” Things that help nudge them in the right direction.

Alasdair Groves:

Yeah. You’re highlighting, again, the fact that there’s a cost. And yet I also just, what you’re saying is not rocket science. I think any of us can say, “Hey, can I take you somewhere? Hey, want to come with me?” Even if the person who’s depressed is 13, and so are you, you can’t offer to take them in your car because you don’t have one. But even that principle of like, “Hey, you want to walk down together and go see the guidance counselor?” “Hey, can I sit with you at lunch?” I’m realizing how broad the implications are of that, and I appreciate you putting it in that theological framework of God is present. This is a ministry of God’s grace. The simple ministry of presence is a move towards someone that says, okay, if our God is an ever present help in times of trouble. If our God is with us, if I will never leave you or forsake you, is a big deal to him as he speaks to us to comfort us in our hardships. You’re saying there’s this wonderful way we actually play that out when we go be with someone. And we’re not God, we’re not trying to replace him. We’re just trying to be a small agent of that.

I feel like even just that piece of it, it changes it because I think so easily because we are fixers, because we tend to have a Messiah complex of, I want to be the one who has the right answer that gets you out of your depression. I think that’s part of why we minimize the value of simply… In one sense we’re asking, how do you walk alongside with someone well? And part of your answer is you walk alongside them. That is in and of itself a huge piece of bearing someone’s burden.

Julie Lowe:

Right. Yeah. We’re deeply afraid of not knowing what to say or saying the wrong thing, and that can happen, but there’s something to be said, and we can all love people. We can all be present and just show care and concern. Now, I want a reason for the hope I have. I want to speak hope into their situation as well. But at the minimum, even when I don’t know what to say, we can practically walk alongside them.

Now, the second part of that is then I pray and I ask the Lord to help me to find places in their suffering that I can point them to the Lord, where I can help show them that God exists and he’s alive and well. I can help give voice to their laments and their anguish. I can put towards sometimes for them what they’re feeling once I’ve really walked alongside them and I’ve heard and really sought to know them well. So I think we can’t be limited to only doing that, that we do want to speak words of hope and encouragement and belief.

Alasdair Groves:

Last question for you. Any thoughts on what kinds of words might be helpful? What kinds of hope, what kinds of encouragement, comfort? Any words are, obviously there’s a broad category of how do you help with your words, what does love in action look like beyond the presence, beyond helping with practical needs and inviting and giving rides and being with you. Any thoughts? Either things you’ve heard people say like, “Yeah, my dad said this to me and it was really helpful,” or, “I was talking to my sister and she said something that was really encouraging.” Any thoughts you’ve heard or things you’ve seen in the council room that you could see translating well outside? I’m asking myself the same question. I don’t have anything immediately off the top of my head. So thoughts?

Julie Lowe:

Yeah. Well, at CCEF, we tend to use the Psalms a lot, that we see Psalms, the Psalms gives voice to our laments often better than we sometimes can. And so speaking words into their life or sharing a Psalm or, I just think music does something really neat for people too. I love the idea of asking people to find a song that really ministers to you, a song that gives you hope or a song that you think really speaks to the pain that you’re going through. But the neat thing is that when we know that God is the author of our story, many times in our anxieties or depression or hardships, we forget the author of our story.

So what does it look like for me to remind somebody that, “Yeah, your story doesn’t feel good right now, the chapter you’re in feels really hard and painful and it doesn’t make sense because you can’t see down the road, you can’t see the end of the story. But can you and I trust the author of the story and that he’s good and faithful?” So there’s where we try to speak words that help retell their story, or we try to play a new song for them that interrupts the hopelessness, their feeling and breathes hope back into their life.

Alasdair Groves:

I love that. It’s making me think of Hebrews 12, right? The author and perfector of our faith. And you can hear that as if it was like, “Well, tough beans about this hard depression you’re going through, but at least your faith will be stronger.” As if there was a difference, a categorical difference between, well, your faith can be strong, but your life can be terrible. And it’s like, well, in one sense that’s true. Your life can be very, very hard and there can be misery and pain and suffering, and your faith can be strengthened through it. But the idea that God is perfecting and strengthening your faith, that he’s the author of your faith, that is an intimate involvement in every element of your life. That’s not as if your faith could be divorced from the rest of your life, and God doesn’t care about the rest of you. He only wants this faith from you.

God doesn’t need your faith. Your faith is a gift from him. He’s perfecting it for your own good and to draw you closer to him in every way, not just in some sort of narrow spiritual sense, because there is no such thing as a narrow spiritual sense. There’s only a broad, full, wonderful, life wide God with us, for us, changing us to be like his son. And it’s interesting, I’m struck by your comment too about lament and how the Psalms invite us to lament and help us learn to lament and what it even means. But I am thinking about how many times, as I’ve talked to someone in counseling or not, and I’ve made some sort of like, “Huh, wow. So you’re saying you’re feeling like…” Fill in the blank. Like, “Man, everything is just completely falling apart for you right now. Wow, that sounds really, really hard.” And I stop there. Often, I find paradoxically, it can be very, very comforting to people. I’d be like, “Wow, yes, you got it. Yes, that is the problem, my life is completely falling apart right now, or at least that’s how it feels to me at this moment.” And that doesn’t mean that’s the end of any conversation you’ll ever have, but I think so often our discomfort with someone else’s hard emotions makes us want to rush to like, “Yeah, I know it’s really hard right now, but don’t worry.”

And so I think starting with lament, and then I love the way you’re saying in a sense that it’s not saying, “Here’s the fix for you.” That’s the second step. That’s the hope. It’s so often it’s going to simply be like, “Yeah, we don’t totally see what the fix is going to look like. We don’t know the redemption. We don’t know chapter 12, we’re in chapter 5.” And there’s a reality to the comfort that actually forces you not to say, “Here’s how you’ll beat your depression,” but rather say, “Here’s the one who is with you,” and authoring your story through the depression. I appreciate that as well.

And both of those statements, the, “Wow, this is really hard, isn’t it?” And I’m hearing you enough to put it in my own words and say, “Gosh, did I get you right?” We can all do that. And again, some of us are going to be more clunky than others as we learn that. And likewise, all of us can learn the skill of saying, “Man, that is just so…” Of being a voice in someone’s life of, “This isn’t the end of the story,” which in a sense just invites continued presence. Okay. I’m going to hang in for the rest of this story because I believe there is a rest of this story, and you may not be able to see that there could ever be another chapter, but I’m going to keep hoping for another chapter, and I’m going to walk with you through that, knowing that God is the writer of longer stories than we tend to think.

Julie Lowe:

Right. Yeah. Yep. Well said.

Alasdair Groves:

Thanks, Julie. I appreciate this. You’re getting me going. I’m going to cut myself off before I wander too much further down the road. Would you mind just quickly praying for folks listening who are either walking through something really hard with someone or who are listening in the midst of their own darkness of the soul?

Julie Lowe:

Sure. Yeah. Let’s pray. Father, we know that there is tremendous suffering out there, and we are barely touching on understanding it and knowing it and giving voice to the heartache that people feel. So, Lord, would you do that for them? Would you go to the places inside people’s heads and hearts that nobody else can reach, and would you remind them they are not alone? And not only are they not alone, but they have the good author who is writing their story, who knows every detail and says, not one will be wasted on them. Lord, would you breathe hope and trust and confidence that you can write a story like nobody else can, and that you will take the ashes and you’ll redeem them and bring something beautiful out of that. And would you give us a commitment that we would pursue people, that we would love them well and want to know them well even in their wilderness? And we pray this all in your precious name. Amen.

Alasdair Groves:

Amen.

The free resource that goes along with today’s conversation is called, How Can I Help My Spouse Through Depression? It is actually an old podcast from CCEF with Winston Smith and Cecilia Bernhardt, and it’s actually with our former host, Andrew Ray. It is worth a listen just for Andrew. He is a dear friend and someone I enjoy very much. So if you get the chance to listen and you want to hear more about the topic, that’s great. If you get the chance to listen and just catch how Andrew used to do things, he’s a great guy to know. It’s fun to get a little snippet of how we used to run things when he was at CCEF. As always, we post these things on our website at ccef.org/podcast, and you can email us at podcast@ccef.org if you have questions or comments or suggestions for us. We’d love to hear from you. Thanks for listening. ‘Til next time. Blessings.