Navigating Conflict: Insights from Biblical Counseling

We’re excited to be back with a new edition of the podcast! Join Alasdair Groves, Esther Liu, Gunner Gundersen, and Darby Strickland twice a month, on every 1st and 3rd Monday, as they discuss various topics, always seeking to bring the riches of Scripture to bear on the complexities of life.

In this episode, CCEF faculty discuss the complexities of conflict, exploring its emotional toll, the normalcy of it a broken world, and how the Lord speaks into and transforms our experience. They conclude with some practical ways we can move toward others and the Lord in the midst of conflict.

• 00:00 Introduction to the Podcast and Team
• 02:48 Understanding Conflict: Personal Experiences
• 06:07 The Normalcy of Conflict in a Broken World
• 09:01 Emotional Responses to Conflict
• 12:07 Scriptural Insights for Handling Conflict: What Does the Bible Say?
• 14:52 The Process of Conflict Resolution
• 17:56 Seeing Others as Image Bearers
• 20:56 Moving Towards Others in Conflict
• 23:59 Final Reflections and Closing Thoughts

Alasdair (00:0)

Well, hello. Welcome to Where Life and Scripture Meet, a podcast of CCEF, the Christian Counseling and Educational Foundation. We are here to serve the church in particular by trying to restore Christ to counseling and counseling to the church. That's our mission. It's been our heartbeat for 50 odd years now. And I'm excited to be back with you guys on this podcast. As any of you who have been listening for any length of time know, we took a number of months off over the summer and the fall and it's just lovely to be back here with you guys. And it's not just me, which I'm even more excited about. So we've switched up our format a bit and we've spent some time thinking about what we want to do. And what we've decided to do is take a team approach to our podcast. So I am happy to introduce three friends to you here today, fellow faculty members of mine at CCEF. I'll start with Gunner Gundersen. Gunner, will you just give us a quick little snippet on who you are and where your particular interests lie in the world of biblical counseling and pastoral care?

Gunner Gundersen (01:11)

Yeah, as Alasdair said, my name is Gunner, and I'm excited to get to share with you guys in this conversation. And I originally come from Oklahoma, and I have been with CCEF just for about five months, since September of 2024. I’m serving as the Dean of Faculty, and really care a lot about biblical theology and just how believers can live very consciously in the story that Scripture tells and how that culminates in Christ, and also have a real passion and love for the Psalms as well. So, excited to be here.

Alasdair (01:40)

Great. Well, thank you for joining us at CCF in general and in particular here on “Where Life and Scripture Meet,” Gunner. Esther, a faculty member as well, you want to just give us a brief little snippet on some of your interests?

Esther Liu (01:5)

Yes, it's nice to meet everyone. My name is Esther. I've been at CCEF for nine years now. I joined as an intern, served various roles at CCEF until I became a faculty member three years ago. I really enjoy writing, thinking about how Scripture intersects with the realities of life, and have a particular interest in thinking about the topic of shame.

Alasdair (02:20)

Thanks. And last but not least, Darby Strickland. You want to give us a little sense of some of where your heart lies?

Darby Strickland (02:27)

Sure, I would say since the years of counseling that I have done actually have led me to care for the vulnerable and the abused. So I'd probably spend the majority of my time studying the Scriptures and trying to mine them for the ways that they would care for the deep suffering that comes along with some of life's deepest sorrows.

Alasdair (02:48)

Thanks. Well, our topic for today as we launch in our new format and a discussion that I thought would be helpful not only for you guys as you listen, but for me personally, I know it's something that I have dealt with and I'm really looking forward to engaging over this, over this topic with Gunner and Esther and Darby, is the topic of conflict and in particular how you handle conflict that just has its way of getting at you, it gets under your skin. It's a conflict that's not just a quick little like, “That was hard, but I don't really think about it anymore.” It's the kind of conflict that is the first thing you think about when you wake up in the morning; when you stop doing any activity, it's the first thing that jumps right back to your mind. It's distracting and able to pull you away from your other life tasks and the things you should be focusing on. I find that particular lane, that particular band of conflict to be just enormously difficult to deal with personally. So I don't expect that in 20–30 minutes, will give any sort of a “Here's the end-all be-all answer that will satisfy every one of the situations you could ever be in.”

But I'd love to together, let's pull on the threads here. Let's tug on this for a bit and just say, what have you learned? What's been helpful to you? Where do you see Scripture moving? And maybe sort of two things that I'd love to see happen in the conversation: one is thinking about sort of emotionally, internally, as you're dealing with it, what kinds of thoughts come to your mind? And then also how does that then play out? As you're trying to take your own emotions into an actual interaction with another person.

So I'll start out by saying, when I was thinking about this topic, there's a particular situation that jumps to mind from a couple years back where I had a particular person who was very upset with me over some things and was increasingly—threatening is probably too strong a word—but was sending me a lot of emails that were very unhappy with me telling me the ways that I had wronged him, accusing me of having been dishonest, of having been unkind, of being unwilling to see what was so obviously true to him. And I did not agree with any of the charges that were being leveled against me, but it got to the point I remember where I would actually start to have a little bit of a, sort of a tensing experience in my body. My shoulders would get tight every time I opened my inbox because I was afraid that his name would be there as a line from an unopened email. And I remember in particular when I did see an email from him, and there was probably about a week where I had at least an email a day from him, and I mean, I just remember this sort of like the wash of adrenaline, the clench of the throat that would happen as I would open the email or just see the name in my inbox. And it was interesting for me to observe in myself how strong the reaction was of, I feel deeply uncomfortable in this situation, I feel the level of how much this guy's sending me an email can own me in this moment, can have the power to shape my day. My physiological reactions are speaking to the level of what this has. It was an eye-opening experience for me in this particular season, like I said, a couple years ago.

Anyhow, so I've got some thoughts on what was helpful to me at the time and what's been helpful to me since and ways the Lord's been growing me. But let me just start by turning the question to you guys. What kinds of thoughts, if someone were sitting in your counseling room and they were sharing this like I'm just sharing, what kinds of things might you point them toward? Or are there places where you would say, you know, actually, Alasdair, for me, the experience has been different. Yeah, how would you respond if you heard someone sharing that with you?

Gunner Gundersen (07:23)

I think that one of the first things that I'd want to say, Alasdair, from my own life, seeing what Scripture unfolds to us and then just talking and working with people is that that kind of experience is not extreme, but in many ways normal. And I don't mean normal to God's ideal, but I just mean normal to life in a fallen world and with the broken relationships that we experience, both our sin and other sin, sometimes just the confusion of limited knowledge that we might have, differing perspectives that we might come at something with, interpretations that we have of events or facts or disagreements. And so I think that's one of the first things I'd want to share that I could do from a number of stories in my own life too about unfortunately the normalcy of that in a broken world. And yet too the hopefulness that God in his grace has entered into that and he's revealed to us his Word that can give us direction first and foremost for how he deals with our own hearts but also how he helps us in our relationships through the many different things that the gospel provides, centering in Christ. So yeah, I think the normalcy, unfortunately, is one of the first things that I'd want to just share with somebody and to be honest.

Darby Strickland (08:32)

I'm thinking too about whether the conflict, the person is upset with you because of something you did or because of something you didn't do or if you're a completely innocent party. When you're entrenched in conflict that's gnawing at you, that's still a form of suffering. And sometimes we want to get to the solution piece where we want to sort through blame. But sometimes we just have to recognize how hard it is, whether it's a relationship that we valued or something that just feels threatening to our livelihood or our church standing, it's really deep suffering to be embroiled, having your body reacting to that level of discord.

Esther Liu (09:15)

Yeah, I can definitely resonate with that. I'm thinking, Alasdair, as you were describing the scenario, I resonate a lot with it. I imagine there are some people who are better at compartmentalizing things like this. I would not be one of them who can kind of separate myself. If there's a really earnest conflict in my life, I probably would be one of those people who would be greatly affected and it would color my day and it would come up as I'm doing my emails and trying to go about the normalcy of my life. And some people, they could probably shelf it a little easier, and that just hasn't been me. So yeah, I think it's a blessing just to recognize, to normalize it, because I think it's easy to feel really ashamed at times, the wrongness of conflict and turning to self-blame or what's wrong, unless we have a view of this being part of the course of being in a broken world and people who even when doing their best, conflict can still come up. I think that's a comfort in the midst of a lot of self-blame and “what's wrong with me” and “am I a bad Christian for even being in these situations” and “if I were good Christian, maybe I could avoid it altogether.” Normalizing it seems really comforting actually.

Alasdair (10:45)

Yeah, I think if I were gonna pinpoint what have been some of the most helpful things to me, there's probably a couple things that have been helpful to me. Number one, this particular episode or season in my life, in some ways I would say was at the beginning of a season where, part as my own role has evolved and as I've grown in responsibilities at work, leading an organization, you just end up in more conversations where you're trying to really think through, what needs to happen here? And not everybody agrees with me on these things. And I'm just so grateful to see how the Lord has grown me. So the first thing would be to say, I feel like something I didn't really have a perspective on at the time was how much the Lord was going to use that experience of being able to come to your inbox and say, okay, there's a hard thing waiting for me in my email. And I just feel like the Lord used that to significantly prepare me for other hard things that would come in the coming days. I feel like the Lord has brought me more hard conversations the further into leadership I get and leading an organization and connecting and just saying, how do you wrestle out theological matters in a way that touches down in people's lives, and you want to do that well. So that would be one thing.

I think another thing that's been helpful to me is 1 Peter 5:7, “cast all your anxieties on him because he cares for you.” And I think one of the things that drew me to CCEF from the very get-go was just the sense of living relationship, of dialogue that can be constant with the Lord. 1 Peter 5:7 is one of a thousand different passages that invites us to actually have this back and forth with the living God, which is sort of a staggering thing for him to invite tiny beings on a tiny planet orbiting a tiny star in one, you know, backwater of one particular galaxy to do. But yeah, that idea that I can repeatedly cast my anxiety on him over and over again. And so even just what I found myself doing in the moment in that particular situation, what I've had to do many, many times since is just say, Lord, I am really feeling it around this email. Like this email is washing over me right now. Seeing that name is hitting me hard. Lord, will you be with me? Lord, I feel anxious that it's going to be false accusation, or I feel anxious that I'm not going to know what to say, or I feel anxious that I'm going to get so worked up, I'm not going be able to complete the rest of my work today or whatever. And that was a fairly extreme one in terms of the way it got at me. And the last thing I'll say, and this is something that's really evolved, I would say, since, it wasn’t in that particular situation, but it's been really helpful, is asking the Lord to give me an adventure mindset, when I'm in a difficult situation and even including a difficult relational situation where it's like, okay, it's so natural for me to pull back, to prosecute the case in my own head, to get worked up, to get dug in, to get entrenched, to find myself just swirling and trying to prove myself right and the other person wrong or the other person's wrong or whatever in my head. And I remember in a particular situation in the last few months where I just said, Lord, I want to actually be able to see, you have good purposes for this. You have brought me in and you will bring me through and you'll bring me out the other side. Will you help me to actually see this as an opportunity and as an adventure? Now that's not going to be true in every case of conflict. There's cases where the immediacy of evil coming at you, adventure would be a wildly inappropriate category to be thinking of in the moment, as if it was like, oh goody adventure, I don't mean that kind of adventure. I just mean as someone attracted to fiction where quest is a significant component, I want to see what the Lord is up to in my life as an opportunity, knowing he's going to use this in me. He's going to use this for good. And let me see, let me be curious about that. Let me dive in on that. Let me see where he would lead. So that's been helpful for me. A couple of reflections. What's been helpful for you guys?

Darby Strickland (15:27)

I think along the lines of what you're saying is sometimes the conflict gets so much of our attention, right? Our minds either are functioning like a lawyer trying to defend ourselves or like a soldier trying to protect ourselves. And the situation eclipses us and we fail to see the larger aspects of what's happening, right? And so by you saying to the Lord, yeah, help me see this as an adventure. Somebody might ask a different question, Lord, help me see what you are doing or help me see how you're protecting me, or what do I need to learn about myself and you from this? So sometimes I think bringing a different question to the conflict that's different than resolving the conflict actually provides us more answers, gives us different places to go to in Scripture, and teaches us something about our Savior who actually bends his ear to us when we're in distress. But it's really hard when we feel that tension and that conflict to ask a different question other than how to make this thing stop.

Gunner Gundersen (16:34)

One of the things, Alasdair, that I have really grown to appreciate about Scripture is just the long timelines that the Lord is on in the midst of the stories that we read. And, you we all love these redemption stories in the Bible, but sometimes you do the math and you realize these stories took so long to unfold and God was doing so many different things in the lives of these individuals or just in the greater scheme of redemptive history over this timeline that he was at work in. I think for me, it can be very difficult to extend that timeline out when I'm in the midst of a conflict. It's only easy to see the thing in front of me. Or when I project out into the future, it just seems negative. Or it only seems like this could only get worse, or maybe I don't see how resolution could come, or I don't see how justice might be done, or I don't see how I could maybe escape the sense of guilt I have over my part in it. And it can just be easy to go in all of those kinds of directions instead of a sense of hopefulness and restfulness in the Lord who's authoring this story as he's authored the ones I see in Scripture that do have all these different things he's working in them, that I can see because in those he's given me the ending and at least a promise of it. And so that's one thing I've grown really thankful for and just asking the Lord to help me to extend out my timeline and how I view other people too, and their role in it or my relationship with them.

Darby Strickland (18:04)

I was going to say, are there practical things that you do in those moments of your conversations of saying, Lord, help me see someone else different or help me extend my timeline? Because that's high level in the midst of conflict to have a different vantage point. So how have you like reminded yourself of that or others in a way that's hope-giving versus, it's just another thing I'm not doing well in the midst of this?

Gunner Gundersen (18:28)

Yeah, I think for me, the Lord has really been teaching me over maybe recent years to just always start with people as image bearers, and everybody fits that category. And that's really helped me, and to see them first as a human being made in God's image. I think the second is in Christian settings to also see people as my brother and sister in Christ. And when I see someone through that kind of two-fold lens as the starting point, it does at least have some effect. It doesn't solve the problem immediately. It doesn't make every other step I might need to take easy or even always clear. But I just find that it tempers my heart in a way and it changes some of the ways that I view things.

I think another that has stood out to me is just how long it can take to build a good relationship and yet how quickly they can be strained. And I heard it said, recently, I don't remember where, don't sever what you could untie. And I think I'm continually trying to work in that direction in my relationships, that when there might be a temptation to just either kind of fight or flee, that I can seek to lovingly engage when that is possible. And it isn't always, but when it is possible to seek to lovingly engage in some sort of redemptive or constructive way. And I think those have been some of the things that have helped me.

Esther Liu (19:59)

I think related to that, something that I've needed to learn and wrestle with when it comes to conflict is acknowledging that there are elements of that that are going to be outside of my control as much as I wish that I could fix the situation or resolve it or reconcile it, bring it back to where it was, as much as that could be my hope, sometimes there are factors that are outside of my control. And ultimately, the Lord doesn't call me to be able to figure out a way to make that relationship work and everything that I feel like it should be. There are ways that he asks me to entrust the results to him, but simply to be faithful with my part in it. And so I turn a lot to Psalm 139 in the midst of conflict, a prayer that is given at the very end where it says, “Search me, O God, and know my heart. Try me and know my thoughts, and see if there be any grievous way in me and lead me in the way everlasting.” And there's, yeah, just the posture of humility of, God, I don't know if I can see this entirely clearly. A lot of emotions are running high. I feel right in certain ways, but I could be wrong. So please search my heart and show me if there are things that need to be revealed. And I want to trust you to reveal those things in your timing. And at the same time, I also need to entrust that when there are things outside of my hands to solve, resolve that conflict and bring that relationship to what I want it to be, I can learn to give that to the Lord and cry out to him of my sadness, but ultimately entrust that as something that's not my responsibility ultimately to own and bear on my own, which is sometimes painful, but also there's something sane about knowing where I start and where I end when it comes to conflict.

Alasdair (21:57)

Hey guys, I said earlier that we weren't going to bring everything to a conclusion in this space of a brief amount of time, but I would love if each of us could just take a moment and share either one reflection or one thing that's been helpful to you on, how do you then move towards the other person? So you're in conflict and again, whatever moving towards or whatever wise godly obedience looks like, let's assume for the sake of argument that you have some decent sense of, here's what I need to do, and it's going to be hard to do it. I'm going to struggle with my own emotions. I'm going to struggle with my own reluctance. I'm going to be physically just kind of trembling because it's that level of, oh no, this is going to be hard. What is one helpful thing to you when you press into that moment or that you're looking to the Lord for? How do you operate when you're actually moving horizontally toward another person in a way that that's been helpful to you? I'd love to hear just briefly from each of us before we close.

Darby Strickland (23:00)

I think when we're embroiled in conflict, it's really easy to make a lot of assumptions about the other person. We filled in lot of blanks. We've made a lot of interpretations. We have a lot of fear about how they might come at us or what they might say. And we spend a lot of time with the possible conversation of how it might go. So really praying about being able to listen, going in and being open and slow to speak and asking the Lord just for an opportunity to really hear from this other person's heart. In order to resolve what's between us, I have to really understand it, even if I don't agree with it. And so an act of love, loving them well, is giving them the chance to be heard. And I think when we're in high conflict, we want to interrupt, we want to set the record straight, we want to defend ourselves, we want to do a whole lot of things, but we don't want to listen well. Because often what we have to hear, it could be painful, right? It could be wrong, could be accurate, but it is painful. And just being really willing to listen and ask good questions and draw them out and give them an invitation that says, I care about what's on your heart and I really want to hear from you. I think it's a really important way to reset the table.

Alasdair (24:11.)

Thanks, Darby. Yeah, amen.

Gunner Gundersen (24:15)

I think related to that is it helps me to try to see the upcoming conversation or interaction as part of a process instead of just an event. When I view it as a singular event, then I start to have these expectations that can become demands that things need to be resolved, often because I don't want to live in the tension anymore. I want to have clarity and resolution. And yet that can lead me to try to rush things in the conversation that I think as Darby's pointing out really shouldn't be rushed. One of those first things is just that understanding. So sometimes if I just need to start with, yeah, I don't know how long this will take us to work through, but I really want to hear about your experience in this and your perspective on it and what's going on, how you've been impacted, what your thoughts are. I think that can go a long way, even if that's one conversation and things aren't at a resolution after that. And that gives me an opportunity to think and pray and come back rather than “I need to make sure that in this timeframe, everything is buttoned up and nailed down.” And that can, I know, lead us to rush a so-called reconciliation or a so-called forgiveness or a so-called confession that everybody knows if we read the room of each of our hearts is not actually present. And so for me, seeing it as a process and a relationship more than just an event that has to be concluded really helps.

Esther Liu (25:38)

It’s funny that you say rushing, because my mind kind of went there too in terms of how do I move towards someone in the midst of conflict. Not at all comprehensive with the first thought that came to mind so often of what I've needed to learn is the art of waiting, which doesn't feel like moving towards. It actually feels like I'm staying put. But there are times when emotions are heightened, when they're getting the best of me, when I know that I'm not ready to have a conversation where I'm not ready to listen and I'm not ready to ask good questions and I don't have the ability or the capacity to be all these things that I know would be helpful in a peacemaking conversation. That one of the best things I can do to move towards and to protect and steward that relationship is actually to wait until there is a readiness and there is time that I can process with the Lord and lament to him and speak to him and tell him what I'm struggling with and tell him what feels impossible for me to do right now even though I know I should. And when the right thing feels out of my reach, what it means to kind of go through this process of, in order to steward this relationship well, I'm going to wait for my emotions to be in a place where I can be that presence that is redemptive and Christlike. Rather than letting my emotions get the best of me and getting swept up in the heat of the moment and actually saying and doing a lot of things that I would end up regretting. That's been a learning curve for me, but something that I've really found the value in as I've practiced that and practiced the withholding, the restraint that is actually a counterintuitive way of moving towards.

Alasdair (27:23)

Yeah, Esther, that syncs very much with what I've been thinking as well, that idea that to restrain is actually to love in this, to restrain myself is going to be a key piece of love. And I think for me, one of the simplest things is just learning the importance of letting—as I start to feel amped up, as I start to feel myself wanting to respond quickly and jump in and I can feel my own emotion getting stronger, my chest getting tighter, feel more frustrated, whatever—just letting that be the fundamental basic alarm system that says, you know what, I am unlikely to be oriented well in the next thing I do if I'm acting operating out of this. So just letting some kind of alert system in myself be like, oh, I am heading the wrong direction here. And probably the two things that come off the heels of that is number one, as soon as I become aware that I'm getting amped up, trying even in the moment to say, “Lord help me.” Part of casting my anxiety on him is literally in the moment saying like, “I am appropriately afraid that I'm going to do something unhelpful here. So Lord help me.” And if I have the brain power or if I have the ability even pausing long enough to say, “Lord, will you help me try to love this person rather than be right?” That's been a really helpful sort of breakthrough reframing. That may have to happen multiple times in 30 seconds, but that idea has been really helpful to me. That practice has been really helpful to me. And I think at the end of the day, the place where that lands when it's at its best is when I'm actually trying to love the other person rather than I'm trying to get out of a conversation or prove myself or whatever the case might be. So that, “Lord, help me love.” That's where I really like to land. If all I can get to is “Lord help,” I'll take it. And if all I can get to is even just an awareness that I need help, that my amped up-ness is the flashing sign that I need to pause, even that in and of itself tends to be a win because it's pointing me towards my need for help from outside. Here's what I can do in my own resources. Lord, will you pause me, and will you ultimately help me to love?

Alasdair (29:46)

Thank you guys. I really appreciate this conversation. I'm looking forward to many more in the coming weeks. For those of you listening, we'll be back a couple times a month. Looking forward to increasing our frequency from our podcast of old. We would love to hear from you. If you have questions or ideas that you think would be helpful for us to discuss, you can always email us at podcast@ccef.org. But until next time, we appreciate your being here with us and look forward to being with you again. Blessings.